Compensating sunken biscuit cone?

[RJVB]

Hi,

I'm finding the action on my Alligator a bit low these days, and looking sideways at the saddle I think the ebony cap starts a little closer to the cover plate.
Hard to judge, easy to miss-eyeball but the instrument has developed a visible belly (or humpback, if you prefer).
I don't think the cone is likely to any form of collapse under the much lower tension of nylon strings, but given that the sound well rests on the back it seems possible that the entire construction could have sunken just enough to be noticeable through easier buzzing.

I was thinking that one way to compensate the effect would be doing the same thing you do with sagging doors: put in a washer of the right thickness. A huge one, and a very thin one, under the cone.

Has anyone ever done such a thing

[Charlie Bernstein]

No, but that sounds real risky. I'd ask at one of the resonator forums. They have lots of builders and techs who have seen (and fixed) everything.

They'd probably appreciate photos, so if you can take some, that'll help.

[RJVB]

What would be risky about it? It's just a way to bring the top of the ledge on which the cone rests back to its old height.

The challenge will be to make a "washer" with the correct external and internal diameters, and the question what material to use. Metal should be fine but I'm a bit afraid that the cone will slide around even more easily when I dig in to the strings.

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by RJVB

What would be risky about it? It's just a way to bring the top of the ledge on which the cone rests back to its old height.

The challenge will be to make a "washer" with the correct external and internal diameters, and the question what material to use. Metal should be fine but I'm a bit afraid that the cone will slide around even more easily when I dig in to the strings.

If your bridge has dropped in height, the chances are that your cone has collapsed to one degree or another. My Gretsch G9202 Honey Dipper's cone collapsed under the weight of light gauge steel strings. They apparently spin some really thin cones. I got a new Beard cone from StewMac and it put the world to rights.

Bob

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

If your bridge has dropped in height, the chances are that your cone has collapsed to one degree or another.

Bob

I agree with Bob’s diagnosis of a partial cone collapse. If anything, adding a washer to increase the cone height will probably make the cone sink further, since you’d be adding increased tension stacking it higher.

Replacing the cone with a new one is almost certainly your best option.

Hope this helps.


Wade Hampton Miller

[RJVB]

Hmmm, the thing is that even light gauge steel strings still have a lot higher total tension than a set of nylon strings, and that the amount of sinking is so small it's barely measureable.

I didn't get the impression that the stock "AmpliSonic" (?) cone is particularly thin, in fact I think I've heard claims of the opposite. Or at least that National cones are thinner. But it being thin does seem like a good explanation why it works so well under nylon strings - and evidently I don't want any regressions in that department...

Am I right that the Honey Dripper is the steel-body equivalent of my Alligator, so presumably they both use the same cone and saddle/biscuit assembly? It'd be good to know either way if Beard biscuit cones are an easier replacement than the National ones (in height and exact diameter, I hope). Beard sell one that has a kind of coating to make it less of a dust magnet.

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by RJVB

I didn't get the impression that the stock "AmpliSonic" (?) cone is particularly thin, in fact I think I've heard claims of the opposite. Or at least that National cones are thinner. But it being thin does seem like a good explanation why it works so well under nylon strings - and evidently I don't want any regressions in that department...

Am I right that the Honey Dripper is the steel-body equivalent of my Alligator, so presumably they both use the same cone and saddle/biscuit assembly? It'd be good to know either way if Beard biscuit cones are an easier replacement than the National ones (in height and exact diameter, I hope). Beard sell one that has a kind of coating to make it less of a dust magnet.

The Honey Dipper is the bell brass version of the Alligator. Their lines are identical except that they substitute bodies. I am relaying the Gretsch advertising about the cone. They are spun in Eastern Europe and replacements cannot be acquired from Gretsch. I ordered the Beard cone ($60 in 2016) and my dealer installed it for me at no charge. I got the impression it was a drop-in. When I got the guitar back it sounded louder and fuller to my ear, believe it or not. The Amplisonic cone is now rather interesting industrial art at the srecording tudio where I work. When seated at the mixing console, if I look to my left I see this:

I included all this in my review of the Honey Dipper, HERE.

Bob

[RJVB]

I'm aware that no replacement parts *at all* can be obtained any longer from Fender, not even saddles. The cone could never be obtained.

Robin Wales may chime in here, but it is my understanding that the bit about the cones being spun in Eastern Europe is a myth. Maybe they're still being made on machines ones used (or simply built) there, but the current cones are almost certainly just as Chinese as the rest of the instrument (besides, is that a slit eye I see on yours? ).

If cones were still being spun in Eastern Europe there should be traces of that fact on the web that don't originate on Fender/Gretsch sites...

Do you think your dealer might remember if the replacement was a drop-in?

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by RJVB

(besides, is that a slit eye I see on yours? ).

It has a regular round hole. I'm using a T-pin to hold it onto the equipment rack in the machine room and that is wht you see.

If cones were still being spun in Eastern Europe there should be traces of that fact on the web that don't originate on Fender/Gretsch sites...

If I remember right, back when these debuted there was a review that listed the source as the Czech Repubic or something like that. But who even knows.

Do you think your dealer might remember if the replacement was a drop-in?

I haven't been there in a while so I don't really know. They did it in one morning, though. "Jut took a few minutes." They were a little shocked that Fender/Gretsch took such a cavalier attitude about the cone. A while later I dented the body. I called Fender about straightening out the dent and they replied, "At that price point I'd consider it disposable." Whoops.

Bob

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

I called Fender about straightening out the dent and they replied, "At that price point I'd consider it disposable." Whoops.

Yeah, my exchange with them and attitude vs. this line didn't really earn them any trust from me. There are way cheaper resonators that don't carry a name with a glorious past ... and one of my reasons for getting a Gretsch instead of one of those cheaper alternatives was that they're actually used by gigging artists.

Oh well, we'll see. The thing is of course that if I'm right and a Beard cone a drop-in replacement it'll be just as much too low as the current cone...