Intonation

[Lonesome Picker]

Having been a diehard Breedlove fan on 12's, I am now looking for a LKSM 12.
I have been a 12 string picker for a lot of years, and I have found a common challenge/problem with most guitars I have played. Intonation to some degree is always less than required to prevent retuning when you "capo up or down" the fretboard. If you play a lot with friends or out, it can be a real hassle. It just depends on how much you need to retune. I think most all guitars have troube with this issue. I know it is the nature of the beast to a great extent. I do think there is a better solution.

Like so many, I harmonize with other pickers using a capo, and if you use a capo a lot, you just HAVE to retune. It is a matter of how much is needed on that particular fret.

It seems to me that an adjustable bridge with a seperate (maybe adjustable)angle for EACH string, would go a long ways in accounting for the different repsonses you get with different string gauges. YOu should be able to get a better balance across the fretboard, as opposed to tring to get that balance now with a "one angle fits all" bridge.

Most luthiers/manufacturers seem to make a guitar that is real nice and balanced when playing in standard tuning, but begin losing the battle with intonation the farther up the fretboard you go.

I would love to see an guitars spec'd to include the following detail:

" This SPECIFIC guitar has been intonated to the 5th Fret using using 13/56 medum gauge Phospor Bronze strings. The particular bridge used to accomodate this intonation is Bridge# 00257. Please see other bridge numbers when changing string gauges or guitar model numbers." YES! Take guitar excellence to the next level!

In the absence of this solution, the best we can hope for to achieve our goals (assuming funds are unlimited or you don't mind retuning all the time) is to buy one guitar for playing (tuned)high on the fretboard, one guitar for playing (tuned)in the middle, and one for playing (tuned) in standard position.

Comments from other "intonators" welcomed. :-)I know musicians would PAY for a solution this ongoing challenge.

Ron

The Lonesome Picker
North Carolina

Hi! I used to think it was me (I'm accutely sensitive to pitch), or possibly rotten guitars, until I discovered the fact that it is impossible to get the guitar to tune BEAT FREE in all chord forms. For example, the "G" chord form will be nearly perfect and the "D" chord form will set your teeth on edge. This is due to the fact that the guitar is intoned by EQUAL TEMPERMENT, a system which offers the ability to play any instrument with any other.

This plays out in your scenario particularly. If the song is in "E" and you capo two and play "D", your intonation will not match that of the root position "E". Another form may work. I've found that B flat barre works well with capo three "G" form, for example. The following reprint will explain the effect:

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The following is a reprint of THE GUILD OF AMERICAN LUTHIERS data sheet #45.


Many guitarists are frustrated because of their attempts to tune the guitar to pure chords (free of beats). These particular players have very sensitive ears that prefer pure intervals and reject the mandatory equal temperament. They tune their guitar beautifully pure on one chord only to discover that the next chord form is unacceptable. In too many instances they assume that there must be a flaw in the workmanship on the fingerboard. Their problem is not in the construction of the guitar. It is one of pure tuning verses equal temperament.

You must accept this compromise because the guitar is an instrument of fixed pitch and the strings must be tuned to tempered intervals, not pure. Equal temperament is the name given to a system of dividing the chromatic scale into 12 equal half steps. Guitarists who have been trying to tune to one or another pure chord form must learn to understand and accept equal temperament. (They might be interested to know that to approximate pure chords on all forms would require about three dozen frets within the octave.) The system of equal temperament reduces the number to twelve, thereby making manageable all instruments of fixed pitch.

Here is what all of this means to the guitarist: You must not, at any time, use harmonic tones at the 7th fret as a point of reference (skilled piano tuners could use them because they know how many beats to introduce between 4th and 5th). Harmonic tones at the 7th fret are pure 5ths, while in equal temperament each 5th must be lowered slightly. To tune by harmonics at the 7th fret (as occasionally ill-advised) will make the guitar sound entirely unacceptable on some chord forms.

On the other hand, all harmonics at the 12th and 5th frets, being one and two octaves above the open strings, are immediately useful as explained below. All octaves and unisons are pure on all instruments of fixed pitch.
Therefore, you may use harmonics at 12th and 5th as reference tones in the following tuning instructions.

Actually this discussion and the following suggestions are for those players who have been tuning to pure intervals. When the steps have been followed correctly the guitar will be as perfectly tuned as it could be in the hands of a professional. Nevertheless, when you have finished, your sensitive ear may notice that on each major chord form there is always one tone slightly high. If you start adjusting a particular string on a certain chord form, you only compound the problem because then the next chord form will be completely objectionable. Tune the guitar as instructed below and let it stand. How to help your ear accept equal temperament: It is easier to face a problem if we are prepared in advance and expect it. If you are one of those
persons who is sensitive to pure intervals, here is what you are going to notice on an absolutely perfectly tuned guitar in equal temperament: Play an open E major chord. Listen to G# on the third string and you most likely will want to lower it very slightly. Don’t do it. Ignore it. Enjoy the overall beauty and resonance of chord just as does the pianist.

That troublesome second string: Play an open position A major chord. Listen to the C# on the second string and you may want to lower it slightly. Play a first position C chord and listen to the E on the first string and fourth string at 2. These tones are slightly higher than your ear would like.

Now play an open position G chord. Listen to B on the second string. Yes, it would sound a little better if lowered ever so slightly. Why not try it? Slack off the second string a couple of vibrations and notice what beautiful G chord results. Now play the C chord and with that lowered second string, and you are going to dislike the rough C and E a lot more than before. Take the open B, second string back up to equal temperament so that it will be equally acceptable on all forms. Learn to expect and accept the slight
sharpness of the major third in each chord (and oppositely, the flatness of the minor third in each minor chord). Train your ear to accept tempered intervals and you will be much happier with your guitar.

PROCEDURE:

Tuning the 1st and 6th strings: The E, open 1st string, must be in pure unison with the harmonic of the E, 6th string at the fifth fret. When these two strings have been properly tuned with each other, continue as follows.
Tuning the 4th string: Play a harmonic on the (in tune) 6th string at twelve, and as this harmonic sounds, adjust the 4th string until the tone E on the second fret is in pure unison. Now you have the E, open 1st string,
1st on the 4th string at two, and E, open 6th string tuned pure (permissible because they are octaves).

Tuning the 2nd string: Play a harmonic on the (in tune) 4th string at twelve. As this sounds, adjust the 2nd string until D at the third fret is in pure unison. As you have used two fretted tones for references and as the
frets are positioned for tempered intervals, you now have the open 1st, 2nd ,4th and 6th strings in tempered tuning.

Tuning the 3rd string: As it is easier to adjust a string while listening to a continuous reference tone, you may first try the following: Play a harmonic on the (in tune) 4th string at twelve and as this sounds, adjust
the 3rd string until D at the 7th fret is in pure unison.

Double check: Now make this check to see if you have been accurate or if the instrument plays tune when fretted at seven. Play a harmonic on the (now tuned) G string at twelve, and as this tone sounds, play G on the 1st string at three. The two tones should be in pure unison. If they are not, either you are at fault or the instrument doesn’t fret tune at seven. Go back to the beginning and carefully check each step up to this point. If the tones are still faulty, then readjust the 3rd string until the harmonic at twelve is in unison with the 1st at three. Do not tamper with the 1st and 4th strings because it is the 3rd string you are trying to bring in tune. When
you have the 1st, 6th, 4th, 2nd and 3rd strings in tune, in that order, continue with the remaining 5th string.

Tuning the 5th string: Play the tone A on the (in tune) 3rd string, at the second fret. Listen to this pitch carefully and now adjust the 5th string until the harmonic at twelve is in pure unison. When the foregoing steps are
followed correctly, the strings will be tuned perfectly to equal temperament. No further tuning adjustments are permissible.

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Hope this helps,

Bob

[Lisa]

Hey Bob,
I found many of your posts helpful but I just had to write about this one since I finally understand why my ear would tell me a string was "wrong sounding" when the tuner was saying it was right. It always seemed worse on different chords than others, now I know why.
As for the tuning method you outlined I've been using it for about 6 months now (I learned it from somebody here on TGF, Mapletrees I think) and it really has helped me get a very balanced tuning. I understand why now. Very cool. Thanks for the lesson. That is one of my favorite things about this forum, I'm always learning something.
Lisa

[Lonesome Picker]

Hey Bob:

Thanks for the information.Very valuable. I wonder how many avoid guitarists there are who are unaware of this bit of information.
I try to transition to the blended balanced tuning approach. I have a history of trying to "fine tune" the tuning on my guitars. Now I know why it is impossible. I do wonder however whether the guitar sounds "out of tune" however slightly, to those listening. Thoughts?

Here is the tuning approach I have been using, with some improved satisfaction I might add. I 'd be interested on your thoughts regarding this approach.

Ron
Lonesome Picker (NC)
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Tuning in Octaves

Here is my method of tuning a guitar in standard tuning using the "perfect" interval of an octave. First, I simply play a first position E major chord to see if it sounds right. Then I'll play a C chord, a D, an A and a G. After years of listening to these chords, I can tell immediately if they are in tune or not.

If I decide I need to tune, I first match my open high-E string to my E tuning fork. I use an E fork because it matches the open first string exactly. (If you have an A-440 fork, it matches the fifth-fret note of the first string. Or, you may match the open first string to your electronic tuner.)

After I tune the high-E string, I match the second fret of the fourth string at the octave to my open first string--the piano tuner's octave technique. These notes are both E. I can get rid of the "wobbles" by making the pitches exact multiples of each other.

(Once you think the octaves are in tune, check it by playing the lower pitch first, followed by the upper pitch. It should sound like the first two notes of "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" from the Wizard of Oz.)

When these two notes are in tune, I play the open fourth string (a D) and match the third fret of the second string (also a D) to it at the octave. I make sure that I tune the second string at this point, since the fourth string is already in tune with the first.

After the second string is in tune, I match the open second string (a B note) with the second-fret note on the fifth string (a low B note). Then I play the open A string (the fifth string) and match the second fret of the third string (also an A note) to it.

Finally, I play the open third string (a G note) and match the third fret of the sixth string (also a G) to it.

If you have followed my pattern in tuning with octaves, you have already tuned all six strings. Here is the order in which to tune your strings using the octave technique:

Tuner or Fork matches 1st string open
1st string open matches 4th string, 2nd fret
4th string open matches 2nd string, 3rd fret
2nd string open matches 5th string, 2nd fret
5th string open matches 3rd string, 2nd fret
3rd string open matches 6th string, 3rd fret

When you first work through this, go ahead and check each new note with your electronic tuner to see how close you are getting by ear. If your octaves are nicely in tune, and your guitar is in good repair, your chords should sound great.


Checking Chords

In each of the following first-position chords, check the tuning of the notated strings. They are all octaves:

E-chord:1st, 4th and 6th (E);
2nd and 5th (B)
D-chord:2nd and 4th (D);
3rd and 5th (A)
G-chord: 1st, 3rd and 6th (G);
2nd and 5th (B)
C-chord:1st, 4th and 6th (E);
2nd and 5th (C)
A-chord:1st, 4th and 6th (E);
3rd and 5th (A)

An important point: When you use octave tuning, make sure that you always tune the string you are going to, not the one you have just tuned!

[szweig]

I haven't yet personally tried this product but I intend to install it on my Big Baby and if it works then I'll put it on my 612CE. Go to: http://earvana.com


This is a nut improvement that corrects intonation. Seems miraculous. Check it out...Steve ZnullEarvana

[Muggy]

Now I know I'm not the only tuning freak out there.My girlfriend is always telling me "Are you gonna play that thing or tune it?"
I play in open E alot and when I capo it,I go stir crazy sometimes.I have a 414 that is pretty good about not wobbling too much but I have a 712 that is a litte more quirky.I fool around with it till it sounds pretty good,it's trial by error.I may be doing one of those methods and not realizing it.Thanks for the info.
Muggy

I'm glad it was useful, folks.

I used to nearly pull out my hair over this one. Using the 5th and 7th fret harmonics method, my friends would tune up, get this beatific look of satisfaction on their faces, and play away confidently. There was also a certain macho thang happening with being able to strike long chimes. I'd do it and the very first chord I struck would sound HORRID!

I don't know about you but I have fought perfectionism pretty hard. There were times when I'd heard a string out of tune and go to pieces like Marty McFly in the dance scene from "Back to the Future". These days, for live playing, I get my guitars set up by the very best luthier I can find, double check 'em, then tune with a tuner and say FINE.

In the studio, I've been known to occasionally tune for perfect temperament if a part has a limited chordal structure and screams for it. You REALLY have to watch out for perfectionism, though. It can really eat you up. The engineer for Steely Dan tells of their standing joke: "We've only been in the studio for six months and we're already beginning overdubs on the first song!"

Knowing the physics of equal temperament really frees you up.

Bob

[ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: Bob Womack ]

[jerome]

How about Buzz Feiten?: http://www.buzzfeiten.com/Articles/articles.html

I've been fascinated by the Feiten system (being well-tempered) and understand that it is a wonderful thing for solo guitarists and those who play with keyboards (which are "well-tempered" rather than "equal-tempered").

Unfortunately, I discovered that a Buzz-tempered guitar isn't in tune with a standard guitar, so jams and chording with another guitarist are out.

By the way, this brings up an interesting problem in orchestras which has raged for a while. With the keyboards being well-tempered and everything else being equal-tempered, things can be kind of ragged at times. Some conductors have argued that pianos used in orchestras should be equal-tempered as well.

Bob

[Lonesome Picker]

How about Buzz Feiten?: http://www.buzzfeiten.com/Articles/articles.html
--------------------
Jerome Gaw http://www.funkycarnivore.com

It seems that the testimonials come from electric guitar players. Is this being used on any acoustics?

Ron

Lonesome Picker
NC

[jerome]

Yeah, apparently there's a way for it to be used on an acoustic, explained here: http://www.buzzfeiten.com/Articles/A..._magazine.html

I have the system on my MTD 535 bass (which is on its way to me), but I don't do a whole lot of chordal playing, so it's probably not the most useful thing.

[tamarack]

Bob and Lonesome Picker -- thanks for the very timely information. I recently started using an Intellitouch tuner (an very useful gadget for simple-minded people like me) I noticed a troublesome twang on the second string when tuning open strings -- your posts explained it all. The guitar and tuner are fine -- my ears were accoustomed to tuning at the seventh-fret harmonic. I ran out and bought a new set of strings to deal with the twang (needed them anyways) From now on I'll use the tuner and check it with octaves.