Adirondack Spruce - I Don't Get It

[Vinyl_Record19]

Hi all:

I've tried my fair share of guitars, but there is one thing that bothers me about the logic of guitar construction; I cannot understand the allure of Adirondack spruce. To me, it's way too stiff right out of the gate and it lacks subtleties that other top woods would offer. I understand if it has a high volume ceiling, but people are putting it on small body and short scale guitars.

There was one instance were a friend showed me his Collings 03 12-fret that he just ordered. It sported Adirondack spruce with Indian Rosewood back and sides. I played it for a little bit and it sounded like all the other Adirondack top guitars before; very stiff. I didn't have the heart to tell him that Cedar, Engelmann or German spruce would of been a better choice because he seemed a little disheartened by it as well. Because Collings suggested the soundboard, he's convinced that it'll "open up" eventually.

I think he should of picked something that would've sounded good to his ears on the first play. There's no telling how long it's going to take to "open up", if ever.

Edit - Due to the length of this board I'm going to post my additional thoughts on this topic post:

I think I'm going to need to summarize my original post and some additional details.

The Adirondack topped guitars that I've played, Taylor, Martin and Collings, seem overtly stiff in terms of response and tonal color. As someone else on this topic has pointed out, Adirondack is considered an upgrade. If, to my ears, they don't sound as good as people claim it to be, I think there's something wrong with the picture. Besides, how can a different soundboard ever be considered an upgrade? We all have different ears and tastes, so this "upgrade" mentality is what is really bothering me.

As for my friend, he wanted a steel string guitar that played and felt like a classical guitar. He got the body style, scale length and dimensions to meet that desire, but he couldn't decide on a top. Collings suggested that he "go all the way" with Adirondack because it was a good investment. Now, coming from a classical background, us nylon stringers like a top that responds well to a light touch with deep bass and sparkling trebles. I feel Engelmann or German spruce would've satisfied that desire far more than a traditional steel string top. Instead, my friend bought into Collings's advise and got a guitar that sounded a little disappointing to his ears.

I wasn't really lumping the aforementioned tone woods into a particular group, I was just saying that they offer different tonal colors and probably should of been considered on the small body Collings.

His guitar uses a short scale and is one of the smallest bodied guitars that Collings offers. What that information, a top that could move more freely with such a small surface area probably would of been the way to go. If this was a dreadnought or jumbo than I can see an Adirondack working in that situation, given a player's playing style utilizes its tonal properties. That was not the case in this situation though.

What irks me about this whole thing is he's missing out on a wonderful experience. You guys should know the one; it's when you get a brand new guitar and are completely enthralled by it's sound. It's inspires you and you find yourself unable to put it down. If I was going to fork over the cash for a Collings, that's what I would want it to sound like. No specific bias or sound in mind, just liking the sound that comes out of the guitar.

I once had a Yamaha GC31 classical guitar. Good price ($1200) for a college student such as myself at the time. The guitar was completely stiff though and that's the complete opposite of what a classical should be. I had people tell me it would open up over time, but it never did after two years of non-stop playing and 30 or so sets of strings. The only way I think that guitar would of opened up would of been to have a luthier completely replace the top or shave down the bracings. I ended up selling the guitar for a measly $600 and I don't miss it.

This is why it bothers me to see a friend go through the same thing. He seems a lot better at convincing himself about things though, so more power to him. It just would of been nice to see him experience a guitar that appealed to him right away.

And about Adirondack itself, I don't doubt there's some good Adi guitars out there. The only way I'd like it though is if a luthier thinned it enough to where it was more responsive or it had a large surface area like a Jumbo or Dreadnought. This 12 string sounds good from the video, but that's only a taste, because I'd have to play it for myself to see if it really sounds the way it does in the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2PT8ttY2H0

Yes, I'm fully aware this applies to me. Life is all about perception from a single point of reference. This is why worded it, "I don't get it". I didn't use the subjective as objective fallacy because I was hoping for the subject of Adirondack to be elucidated by other people.

I also understand why a topic like this would make people so upset. Is there an Adirondack guitar out there that I would like? More than likely because there are 100's of thousands of guitars out there. Have I found it yet? Not quite. I've played Redwood, Cedar, European, Engelmann and Sitka tops that added color to my playing and I'm obviously going to gravitate towards some more than others.

Unfortunately, Adirondack has yet to capture my ear. Do I hate Adirondack itself? No. What I really hate is how guitar companies see it as a premium upgrade when Sitka spruce and Adirondack are completely different woods.

Do you mean Sitka is the nylon Engelmann in terms of availability, or by denseness to tension ratio? If it's by ratio, I think German spruce would be more like Sitka because both have high tensile strengths for their respective string type.

I had a handmade classical guitar with Engelmann spruce and it was a beautiful guitar. It sounded like a cross between German spruce and Cedar; very soft and responsive, but clear and articulate. Incredibly easy to create a nice tone from it.

[blindboyjimi]

5 of 7 of my small body guitars are Adirondack. If you don't get it, that's cool. I get it.

Edit: I didn’t even notice your forum “name”. Yeah some people don’t get vinyl. Why would anyone tolerate pops, clicks, and the noise of vinyl over perfectly clean and accurate digital....well because vinyl just plain sounds better (to me - though I have a turntable (AMG) and a digital (Lumin T2) server as digital is just easier. So looking into my music room, I’ve got tops made of Mahogany, European, Adirondack, and Sitka.

[tippy5]

hundreds of hard right hand, heavy pick, hours. Tone Rite it too! in a few months it will start to open. Needs a heavy hand and a patient ear.

[Russ C]

As others will say, specific spruces vary a lot and can "overlap" - but I reckon there is an identifiable average tonal signature from different spruces and each is not for everyone.
The first thing some players check out is loudness, others: bass, mids, brightness, penetration, responsiveness, evenness, rich overtones, lack of overtones, reputation, .. and anything you can think of will be someone's focus, or deal breaker.
I'd say "getting" a particular tonewood means it does what you want.
Not getting it may mean the examples you've heard fail to be what you want.

[Vinyl_Record19]

Originally Posted by blindboyjimi

5 of 7 of my small body guitars are Adirondack. If you don't get it, that's cool. I get it.

It is cool because the wood doesn't interest me. But when a company tells one of my friends some possible misinformation, it becomes personal. I have no idea why Collings didn't suggest other soundboards to him. Now he feels he needs to just accept the outcome and not do anything about it. Very frustrating.

Not getting it may mean the examples you've heard fail to be what you want.

I'd expect a soundboard to sound as good as people say it sounds. When it doesn't to my ears, something's not lining up.

A large factory produced guitar that produces to specs will never be able to have the top thinned like a small, independent luthier, hence why your friend may be disappointed with the Collings. Some may come out great, some may come out stiff.

I figured that might be a possibility. A classical guitar luthier told me that soundboards need various levels of thickness due to their stiffness. I guess a factory warranty might be causing them to be too thick.

[51 Relic]

Yes there is s difference but How much does the following play a part in the sound apart from body type and wood selection

Playing technique
Nail condition
Pick material
String type
String gauge
Humidity
Thickness and type of finish
Glue type

The list goes on and on . Finally when I bought my Gibson J45 I also tried the J45 Custom with a Red spruce top . Yes the Custom was slightly louder and more touch sensitive , but three months on a my Standard has opened up really well and is more responsive to fingers . In fact it's too loud to strum with a pick sitting indoors at home .The biggest change is the addition of overtones that sound like a built in reverb within the guitar .
When I bought the guitar I also played a brand new Martin EC £ 9,000 NOW yes the sound was different not what I was looking for but what a sound

[tippy5]

I would try to send it back, warranty it, for a warmer model spruce? If they will? But adi guitars do take some time to open. Try some warmer strings. Are you going for bluegrass, high action and 13-56's?

I couldn't wait to resell my only Colling's purchase. 2011 D2H. It was lush, but not bold or dynamic and it had the typical Colling's brightness. I did love the build and neck carve. Not so much the compound radius and not so much the bolt on neck.

Funny I remember them sounding incredible 25 years ago in the dawn of boutique guitar shops. I am sure there are great models out there I have only played around 10 in 20 years. I am no Colling's expert but I have felt the sting of opening up a high end guitar case and thinking the new purchase sounded like some make / model that was less than half the price paid.

Don't hit the top but wail with a heavy pick and vibrate it. Richie Havens crazy deep, sound hole plunges! Get a tone rite. These two things can open up a guitar in months, not years.

[zhunter]

Originally Posted by Vinyl_Record19

It is cool because the wood doesn't interest me. But when a company tells one of my friends some possible misinformation, it becomes personal.

I recommend you don't take it personal.

hunter

[Hierophant]

It's often used on small guitars because the good stuff isn't big enough for a dread/jumbo sized top.

[blindboyjimi]

Originally Posted by Vinyl_Record19

It is cool because the wood doesn't interest me. But when a company tells one of my friends some possible misinformation, it becomes personal. I have no idea why Collings didn't suggest other soundboards to him. Now he feels he needs to just accept the outcome and not do anything about it. Very frustrating.

Ouch. I'd expect a soundboard to sound as good as people say it sounds. When it doesn't to my ears, something's not lining up.

I figured that might be a possibility. A classical guitar luthier told me that soundboards need various levels of thickness due to their stiffness. I guess a factory warranty might be causing them to be too thick.

I agree it must be frustrating, but the reason Collings suggested it is that some people love it (me). But some people certainly won't. No, if you play bare fingers on a small body 0 12 fret you may like the warmth of Engelmann or next up Sitka, perhaps a blend with a Euro (Italian, German, Swiss) to get a good volume with little input. But if you like dynamics and want to go to 11 then its Adi everytime.

I love all food. We go out to eat 3x a week and it drives my wife crazy, but I have the waiter order for me. After all, who knows what's most fresh and the Chef's specialty better than the Chef and the waiters. Every now and then, "something doesn't line up". Just because I love the Lasagna doesn't mean you will.

You are talking Collings, not Yamaha, Eastman, or Blueridge (no offense to those owners - good guitars but there are several layers above). Once you get to mid level Martins, Gibson I think you get what you pay for. I've had an 000-18, 000-18 Marquis, 000-18GE, 000-18A and the real deal 1937 000-18. Each one is better than the next, but you pay for it. If your friend is at the Collings level (or SCGC, Bourgeois or one luthier built) he will get a great guitar. It just might not be great for you. I have never played a Collings dud, but I don't like all Collings guitars, nor do I own one.

If you look at my signature you won't see any 0's, dreads, cedar tops, redwood tops, Olsons, Somogyis, etc. That doesn't mean those aren't great.

Perhaps your friend should trade in the guitar back to the dealer and get something different, but not liking a guitar is certainly not a warranty issue. Good luck.

[Russ C]

"Ouch. I'd expect a soundboard to sound as good as people say it sounds. When it doesn't to my ears, something's not lining up."



You may have said a lot there. People educate themselves to like what they're supossed to like. It an unconscious thing. We define good by what "those who know" say is good. Think of the music your peer group liked while your were learning who you are, then gain some years and some experience and we're more ready to decide for ourselves.

I'm not saying Adi's tonal qualities don't deserve to be liked - I'm just meaning to support someone who made an adult decision that it's not necessarily the best thing for every job.

I do hope the op didn't take the "may mean you have no class" line seriously .. the "or more likely" bit was the active part of that sentence.

[Michael Watts]

Originally Posted by 51 Relic

Yes there is s difference but How much does the following play a part in the sound apart from body type and wood selection

Playing technique
Nail condition
Pick material
String type
String gauge
Humidity
Thickness and type of finish
Glue type

Spot on...

Here is a selection of different sized adi-topped instruments back to back. To my ears they sound anything but tight...

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by tippy5

I couldn't wait to resell my only Colling's purchase. 2011 D2H........ I did love the build and neck carve. Not so much the compound radius and not so much the bolt on neck.

"Not so much the bolt-on neck" .... I find that slightly puzzling.

If you were unaware that Collings used bolt-on necks, and if you had a preconceived notion that a dovetail neck joint was superior, then I can understand your reaction.

But if you knew before buying that the guitar had a bolt-on neck, then I am intrigued to know what happened subsequently to cause your dissatisfaction with the method of neck attachment.

[BrunoBlack]

Originally Posted by Vinyl_Record19

Hi all:

...I cannot understand the allure of Adirondack spruce. To me, it's way too stiff right out of the gate and it lacks subtleties that other top woods would offer.

... I didn't have the heart to tell him that Cedar, Engelmann or German spruce would of been a better choice...

Well there are no shortage of master builders and proficient players who apparently disagree with you. Talk to, or just look at what Dana Bourgeois (puts on his signature guitars) or Michael Millard (Froggy Bottom) choose as preferred tops in their search for excellence. Red spruce is one wood that is on their short list. I'm neither a master builder or highly skilled player, but I do have a decent ear. I own guitars with tops of red spruce, Sitka, German, and mahogany -- with a mix of bracing materials and styles. They are all wonderful instruments. Red spruce provides a very nice option. It might not be a good option for you. Like everything, there's a reason for variety in the marketplace.

[HHP]

The appeal of Adirondack spruce was very clear when I purchased one. The most immediate reaction was note definition and clarity combined with great power, projection, and headroom. I didn't wail away for hours or apply any electrical devices, it sounded good from minute 1 and continues to sound that way today after several years of play.

These are not qualities I want in every guitar, but I do want them in this guitar. I wanted something to be able to stand out in a varied instrument mix and this does it. Adirondack does seem to add to the totality of sound more than many other wood substitutions though it does depend on a builder able to get the most from it.

I have other guitars that use Sitka or Cedar and they fill other needs I have. The Adirondack can't replace those and more than they can replace the Adirondack. Like anything else, its all a matter of knowing what you want and selecting materials that will be most likely to provide it. As far as Adirondack goes, if you need what it does, you "get it" pretty clearly.