When is Common Time Not So Common?

[Paikon]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

The timing shown on the refrain sounds like the recording. I thought it was triplet timing at first but actually it is not quite that. However it would not be that hard, though not correct, to smear the timing into that.

i have to disagree.

[Mr Fixit eh]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

This piece is traditionally more properly a reel than a jig, and the timing of the two is different, two beats in reels, three beats in jigs, therefore the 4/4 timing shown in sheet music.

But there are jigs in 6/8, 9/8, 12/8, no?

Steve

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Mr Fixit eh

But there are jigs in 6/8, 9/8, 12/8, no?
Steve

?
This is a reel, thus 4/4 timing. Look at the timing in the first measure of the refrain. Of course you can change things by modify the timing if you wish.

[Paikon]

...............

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Not really.
Here is the sheet music.

IMO that's wrong, or at least misleading - although I can undestand why they've done it that way.

The rhythm on the video is clearly compound time: 6/8, or possibly 12/8.

Whoever notated the song must have thought it was simpler to make it 4/4 (with triplet markings where necessary), but IMO the dotted 8th rhythms are misleading (3+1 16ths, rather than 2+1 triplet 8ths).

The introductory verse is a different matter. (The band omit that and launch straight into the chorus.)
The verse is clearly designed with a different rhythm - marked "slowly", and "ad lib". OK, therefore, to make that 4/4. (And then understandable not to "complicate" matters by changing the meter at the chorus.)

The chorus is marked in "cut time", not 4/4, btw. That indicates a clear halving of the bar (accents on 1 and 3), which does recognise the fact that it's "in 2" (not in 4). With the triplet feel, that puts 6 sub-beats in each half-a-bar. So they are kind of suggesting 6/8 feel without actually notating it. (The marking "moderately, with a lilt" is obviously another hint about the jig rhythm.)

Of course, it's not an original Irish folk tune (written in 1950), but is much more like a jig than a reel. Although I think there are occasional exceptions, reels are in 4/4, with straight 8ths, jigs are triplet feel - normally written in 6/8, apart from slip jigs, which are 9/8.

Reels:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXWuw_Bn0sM
(Straight 8ths, albeit with a light swing feel and occasional triplets)
Jigs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL2XC-RyL7Y
Christmas in Killarney sounds more like the latter than the former.

[rick-slo]

Two sets of eighth note triplets is not 6/8.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Two sets of eighth note triplets is not 6/8.

It is if it goes on for most of the tune.
I mean, you don't need to have 6 stated triplets in each bar of melody (or indeed in any bar) to make it 6/8. You just need the constant triplet feel in the rhythm - which is there in this piece.
Triplet markings (in 4/4) are for pieces where the 8ths are normally straight (or in swing jazz, which is not normally triplet feel).

The point is, there is a clear difference in feel between a 6/8 piece (like this song), and a 4/4 piece in swing feel. (Or indeed one with dotted 8th rhythms). This sounds nothing like swing, nor is it much like a dotted 8th rhythm (although I've often seen dotted 8ths in 4/4 as a crude approximation of both 6/8 and blues shuffle). It's that classic rumpty-tumpty Irish 6/8 feel .

Even clearer in this version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdUrdZmzFPo
(I'm sparing you all th Bing Crosby version...)

[rick-slo]

If a measure consists of two sets of eighth note triplets you would have 2/4. Six normal eighth notes in a
measure would be 6/8, but we are talking about triplets in the refrain (plus time values of 123-1).

[Bern]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

?
This is a reel, thus 4/4 timing.

I agree...

[stanron]

I suspect the main problem with regard to six eight time and triplets is semantical. In one sense a triplet is a tuplet which is a forced division of a note and in another sense a triplet is a group or set of three. I used to teach that six eight is duple compound time, or was it compound duple time? It's been so long I can't remember.

Incidentally has any one seen the score for the first movement of Moonlight Sonata? It's got four triplets to a bar and is notated in common time. Whoever wants to argue with Ludwick on that one is going to have to start digging.

[ocarolan]

The band in the video are clearly playing in 6/8 as a jig.

A 6/8 jig has two strong beats in a bar 123456.

Quite a few Irish type tunes can be played as a jig or a reel (4/4) and many tune sets (especially for dancing) include both jigs and reels whilst keeping the same basic pulse.

(And yes Steve, there are also 9/8 and 12/8 jigs :-) )

Keith

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

If a measure consists of two sets of eighth note triplets you would have 2/4.

If the rest of the piece is not in triplet feel, yes. One measure is no guide.

Just to be clear (so we're not talking at cross purposes): the sound of one measure of two beats that subdivide into 3 can be notated two ways:
(a) 2/4, with "3" triplet markings;
(b) 6/8.
These sound exactly the same.
6/8 would be chosen if the triplet feel was throughout, or in the vast majority of measures.
2/4 would be chosen if the beats mostly divided in 2 (equally) and the triplet feel was occasional.
It's a matter of economy in the notation. 6/8 saves writing "3" and triplet brackets all the time.

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Six normal eighth notes in a measure would be 6/8, but we are talking about triplets in the refrain (plus time values of 123-1).

Sure. That's how it's written. But I'm saying how it's written is not the best indication of how it sounds.
The triplets are right, of course, but the dotted 8th rhythms aren't: 16ths in 3+1 form.
I'll accept that's maybe close enough - it's easy enough to guess what they mean by that. One wouldn't actually play those dotted 8ths as strict 3+1 16ths; unless you were a really anal classically trained reader, a bit of plain common sense would tell you it's a triplet feel throughout. Like a fairly fast 6/8, IOW (or 12/8 if you go with the 4-beat measures indicated).
That would be the same kind of common sense that lets you play straight 8s in jazz notation with swing feel when appropriate.

[Paikon]

Originally Posted by JonPR

If the rest of the piece is not in triplet feel, yes. One measure is no guide.

Just to be clear (so we're not talking at cross purposes): the sound of one measure of two beats that subdivide into 3 can be notated two ways:
(a) 2/4, with "3" triplet markings;
(b) 6/8.
These sound exactly the same.
6/8 would be chosen if the triplet feel was throughout, or in the vast majority of measures.
2/4 would be chosen if the beats mostly divided in 2 (equally) and the triplet feel was occasional.
It's a matter of economy in the notation. 6/8 saves writing "3" and triplet brackets all the time.

thats right

[rick-slo]

In triplets three notes have the duration of two, thus 4/4 time in this piece, and that is how it counts out. There is no use beating a dead horse though by adding any further comments.

[Paikon]

its 6/8 ...i doubted of a moment but it is 6/8