New Journey Nylon

[Captain Jim]

Now that the discussion has moved on from the thinnest body nylon string carbon fiber guitar, why not commission Alistair to build a wide-body X7 nylon string? I am not being a smart aleck. It seems that everyone here is in agreement that a nylon guitar needs some interior volume to produce acoustic audio volume. Evan has already stated that he likes the tone of his 3 slim and slimmer customs, why not go the other way?

Perhaps the desire for thin and thinner was a comfort issue, but those of us who play Emeralds know what great ergonomic design they bring to the party. Looking at Ramirez guitars on-line (never played or even seen one in person), those look pretty... um... traditional. (Makes my ribs and forearm hurt just looking at them.)

Hey, I get it if the quest is to see if a manufacturer will invest the time to make something that may or may not pan out. If they were to discover some way to get big sound out of a thin guitar (without amplification), it may move guitar making into another dimension. I still think physics applies, but I would love to see Evan get the guitar of his dreams.

As I recall, Edison made 1,000 or so failed attempts to create the light bulb before he succeeded. With that in mind, I contacted Porsche again about my car idea... they sent me a video of 3 German guys pointing and laughing at me. "Ho, ho, Captain Jim - you are so looney!" Seems a bit harsh.

[ac]

Evan, my thought was if you still had interest in that Ramirez, but must have carbon fiber, then, the option from Madrid is a possibility that "might" satisfy. You have always allowed that you would still be open to the Ramirez--without ergonomics--just because it's the ideal sound you crave--but the CF ideal holds you back.

You have written for years yearning for super thin bodies and ergonomics as well. Yet, with even the best efforts by Emerald, producing guitars the rest of us are truly amazed by in every way, you always still want the same output as the Ramirez. That desire erases all the satisfaction you have otherwise.

The option in Spain is unlikely to build anything on the lines of Emerald. For the world of classical guitars, they are already ultra radical, trust me.

I tend to spend most of my time in Europe (I haven't been in the U.S. for over two years) and by far, the standard looking nylon string guitar is what a "real" guitar is for the bulk of the average players who don't spend much (any) time on guitar forums.

All that to say, the Madrid builder may make guitars of CF that sound close to the Ramirez. That's already amazing. But they will never have the comfort of the Emerald. Their particular target customers want traditional shapes in particular.

If slim is an absolute must, then, without amplification, I think you already have in your home the best sounding CF nylon string guitars that this world has to offer.

As others have written and stated, I don't think satisfaction will come with a change to yet another guitar.

True satisfaction lies elsewhere.

You are right, AC, a traditional build is not going to work for me--Alistair has spoiled me.

And Jim is probably also right in that I should probably working toward more rather than less body. Given the projection of the thin-bodied X7 perhaps la wide-bodied X7 would produce the desired projection. Although...my X20 nylon string guitar had lots of body but still lacked the kind of projection I want.

The Manzer Wedge is interesting because it appears to offer both thin and wide body build--thin at upper arm level, thick at lap point. But, as noted above, the projection problem is not about volume alone--I think that a different face needs to be engineered. Maybe some spider web bracing with a super thin carbon weave covering? Maybe tone posts to support a thinner face.

The Dlutowski looks to be a fairly large instrument and it appears to have the projection of a good flamenco guitar. I wonder about the thickness of the face?

Jim; Good luck with your Porsche and don't worry about people laughing at you--the world can use a little humor here and there. Your best bet is to laugh along with those three skeptics.

[Captain Jim]

"And Jim is probably also right..."

I'm going to have that framed and give it to the Blonde as a gift.

I think you are on to something regarding the soundboard. I tried nylon folk strings (ball end) on my X7, and boy did that sound lousy. I have to admit, Evan, you did make me "nylon curious." After that short-lived experiment with the nylon strings on the X7, I bought a Yamaha SLG-N (nylon string "Silent" Guitar). The neck on that was like trying to play a surfboard for this steel string guy; flat and wide. The amplified tone was decent, but playing it was miserable.

Thus ended my nylon curiosity.

That said, how about a wedge (Manzer or custom designed) incorporated into an X7? From a steel string perspective, I have been impressed with the sound/tone on the previous generation X7 for its size. Take the new X7, add a bit of a wedge, lighten the top as much as you dare, and... Well, I'll let you and Alistair take it from there.

Dang, I see what this quest thing is all about. As long as I'm not spending my money.

I'm glad we're all beyond this "thin is in" stuff - I have been pushing "thick as stylish" for a lot of years now. Good to see this tide swinging.

Not totally unrelated, there is a guy in our home area who plays guitar and sings in a couple restaurants. His singing is good, his playing is outstanding. He plays a Gibson Chet Atkins CE-AN, and gets great tone into a small PA. Other than his, I haven't seen another in person. I have been impressed each time I hear him play.

Of course, that would be another plugged-in solution. And, I guess if you were OK with plugged in, you'd be content with what you have. So, in the words of the philosopher Emily Litella: "Nevermind."

Jim;

I like your suggestions (something I assume you get a lot of from your lovely wife) and may follow your lead. I may get on line with Alastair's crew and see what might be available in a thinner face, and a manzer wedge.

I had the same experience with the Yamaha, relative to fret width. I had a Chet Atkins for a while and it was a very nice guitar. It was also a heavy sucker and, as you point out, not acoustic.

I am sort of disappointed that you will not be contributing any money for my quest, but I like you anyway.

[ceciltguitar]

I have a 2018 “new” model X-10 Cocobolo nylon string Guitar. It has a wider body than the old model X-10 - I have one of those too, also a nylon string guitar. Both of those guitars are wider than the X-7. (I bought an older model 2017 X-7 Woody for my wife, and then sold it because she did not care for it).

Neither of the two X-10 nylon string guitars are very loud compared to a concert level traditional classical guitar. My guess - and it is just a guess - is that you would have to go to an X-30 to get much volume out of a nylon string Emerald.

[Captain Jim]

Gosh darn it, Evan - I was about to Paypal you a little something towards "the next one," when Mother Nature whacked us again. I am dumbfounded by this: 5 hail storms in 8 days. Our conveyances are in need of repair: motorhome, car, and cargo trailer. Fortunately, our scoots were in the cargo trailer, so they are unscathed. Looks like, I will be ponying up the cash I was going to send your way to pay the deductibles.

I'll start putting a little something aside again. Hope nothing else comes up, but 2020 has been snitty thus far.

[casualmusic]

Originally Posted by ceciltguitar

I have a 2018 “new” model X-10 Cocobolo nylon string Guitar. It has a wider body than the old model X-10 - I have one of those too, also a nylon string guitar. Both of those guitars are wider than the X-7. (I bought an older model 2017 X-7 Woody for my wife, and then sold it because she did not care for it).

Neither of the two X-10 nylon string guitars are very loud compared to a concert level traditional classical guitar. My guess - and it is just a guess - is that you would have to go to an X-30 to get much volume out of a nylon string Emerald.

Yup!!

To keep up with the 14 litre Ramirez (more is better):
- an X30 with 2" Mazer slice would be approx 16 litres
- an X20 with 1.5" Manzer would be approx 14 litres
- an RT660 with 1.3" Manzer would be approx 14 litres.
- a Dlotkowski with 2" Manzer add/substract cut is approx 14"


Next step could be to pick feasible options and make mock-up models to if they're comfy enough for EvanB. He could use doubled cardboard from boxes, or foam layers.


** Note: These calcs are "napkin and pen" scratchings to zoom in on the most likely options. They are based on GC guitar tracings roughly scaled up or down. Accuracy may vary 1-3 litres from the real guitars. (and it was startling to calc the litres traded off for cutouts and deep bevels).

Before ordering an expensive custom guitar, one of many many decision points should be to use tracings of real guitars to get *accurate* calculations.



À. Some 'rithmatic
B. Discussion



À. Some 'rithmatic

Approx guitar body sizes are calculated from specs (calcs need to be double checked - but probably close enough for now):


~ 14 litres - 19" x 15" x 4" - Classical spanish guitar


~ 14 litres - 19" x 15" x 5/3" - Dlutowski carbon fibre guitar with 2" Manzer evenly added/reduced to keep the 4" average thickness


~ 14 litres - 18" x 14.5" x 4.8/3.5" - the Journey RoadTrip RT660 body mold includes a 1.3" Manzer Wedge which means a special body mold will likely not be needed.


~19 litres - 21" x 17" x 5.75" - Emerald X30

~16 Litres - 21" x 17" x 5.75/3.75" - X30 with 2" Manzer slice


~ 15.5 litres - 19" x 15.25" x 4.75" - Emerald X20

~ 14 litres - 19" x 15.25" x 4.75/3.25" - X20 with 1.5" Manzer slice

~ 13 litres - 19" x 15.25" x 4.75/2.75" - X20 with 2" Manzer slice


~ 14 litres - 18" x 14.75" x 4.75" - Emerald X10

~ 12 litres - 18" x 14.75" x 4.75/3.25" - X10 with 1.5" Manzer slice

~ 11 litres - 18" x 14.75" x 4.75/2.75" - X10 with 2" Manzer slice


~ 8 litres !! - Evan X10 2.5" (??) super thin electric


~ 8 litres - CA Cargo



B. Discussion:

** Evan's X10 super thin electric was reduced to the same air volume as a CA Cargo!! So of course it sounds tiny at a jam session and needs an amp.


- The thin edge of a Manzer *does not* need to be as thin as Evan's X10 super thin because the slope adds a lot of comfort. This can be checked out with a mock-up.

- The Manzer Wedge can be:
a) sliced from a guitar's stock dimensions, or
b) added to a guitar's stock dimensions, or
c) sliced from one edge and added to the other edge

- Manzer Wedges in production guitars seem to be in the 1-1.4" range. Does a deeper Manzer Wedge affect tone or loudness? (émail: Linda Manzer)


- AGFers report that their nylon string carbon fibre nylon string guitars *under perform* the equivalent size wood guitars. Has the new Dlutowski carbon fibre guitar from Spain overcome this problem? Follow-up with artluthier.com/en/home-2


=> This under performance indicates that an equal or larger carbon fibre body size is needed.

=> The target could be 14+ litres

=> The new Dlutowski carbon fibre nylon string guitar might be loud enough in its current version. It's luthier might agree to make a Manzer version that keeps the 14 litre air volume by narrowing one edge and widening the other edge.

=> The body mold for the Journey RT660 including 1.3" Manzer Wedge appears to meet the 14 litre target.

=> The Emerald X20 body with a 1.5" Manzer Wedge at 4.75/3.75" at the butt end seems to meet the 14 litre target.

=> The Emerald X30 with a 2" Manzer to get 5"/3" at the butt end would be larger than the 14 litre target.


** hoping these scratch calcs are helpful
.

[ceciltguitar]

Casualmusic has devoted a lot of time and effort to specific calculations for various options, so he may have already mentioned this:

Another way to increase volume for an Emerald might be to extend the body a little further up the neck, closer to the nut, maybe up to the 12th fret on the bass strings side of the guitar, and a little closer to the nut on the treble side as well.

Regardless of what you do to change the body volume, my experience is that nylon string carbon fiber guitars yield less increase in volume per increase in applied force to the strings than traditional wooden classical guitars.

[Explorer]

I've always suspected the volume issue is due to the stiffness of the CF top around the edges.

Loud classical and nylon-strung guitars can get enormous volume with such strings, and cannot take the tensions of steel strings over time without damage. Even comparing the construction of a classical and steel-strung guitar withe the same wood for tops and sides, the classical is much more lightly built.

The Instruments of Dixie Michell (Guitar Company of America) also display tremendous volume, due to the top beng used purely as a sound projecting surface, and the body having the internal stiffening to take almost all the torque of the strings.

I even have a pancake mandolin which is deliberately morely lightly built than the Gibsons and Flatirons normally seen (and heard). It has lighter strings than even the incredibly thing GHS Ultra Light set, and is louder than most examples of such instruments.

CF is much stiffer and stronger as a material than the traditional wood at the edges. I have no idea how thin one would have to go with CF to get the flexibility of barely braced wood around the edges of a standard flamenco guitar, but there is clearly a difference.

My thinking, if I was looking for a solution, might lead to my trying a flexible interface like the top suspension ring on the old Adamas guitars. Otherwise, I suspect it would be like trying to make a loudspeaker with a titanium cone, but making even the gasket out of strong but stiff titanium, instead of using a flexible gasket around the edges. Not surprisingly, you don't ever see such a loudspeaker design which is successful... just as I've never seen such a lightly-strung but loud design work on a CF guitar.

Atill, there's a chance all these examples have the physics wrong, so I'll continue watching the quest with interest.

I understand the need for some volume, but keep coming back to the fact that most wooden classical guitars are not particularly large, they just project largely. That's what I want to see with CF. I've thrown the question to Emerald--is there a way to alter a CF face to greater sensitivity?

[casualmusic]

Originally Posted by ceciltguitar

Casualmusic has devoted a lot of time and effort to specific calculations for various options, so he may have already mentioned this:

Another way to increase volume for an Emerald might be to extend the body a little further up the neck, closer to the nut, maybe up to the 12th fret on the bass strings side of the guitar, and a little closer to the nut on the treble side as well.

Regardless of what you do to change the body volume, my experience is that nylon string carbon fiber guitars yield less increase in volume per increase in applied force to the strings than traditional wooden classical guitars.

Hi Cecil and Explorer.

Nylon strings seem to generate a lot less impulse than steel strings.

So not surprised to read that you're both guessing that the carbon fibre might be too stiff to get louder.

À carbon fibre guitar production shop couldn't afford to make a large number of experimental tops. The Rainsong founder, Dr John Becker, has a story on his website tellinh how they made 500ish 4" x 6" carbon fiber variations and gave them the tap test to find the handful which sounded good enough for more experimentation.


Given the narrow 19" x 15" range of wood classical guitars I'm guessing that luthiers may have found that going bigger wasn't worthwhile because bigger panels of wood got too heavy for gut and then nylon strings.

I'm sorta curious if Dlotkowski found a solution for nylon strings driving carbon fibre tops. But not enough to dig further.

These calcs were started last year when my heart kept telling my brain that the adorably charming 2018+ steel string X7 guitar would be loud enough for jam sessions and singalongs.

After the sobering results, whenever my regular jamming guitar is too large or cumbersome I take the banjo which is very compact and plenty loud enough.


Revisited the calcs for Evan.


Cheers.


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