Major or Minor?

[k_russell]

The flat 3rd is relative to the root note of the chord, not the key of the melody/song.

The D-major chord's 3rd note is F#. The F note is sharp in the key of D. The D-minor chords 3rd note is F natural. F- natural is the correct scale tone in the key of C or A-minor. F natural is flat with respect to the key of D.

You make the 3rd note flat in order to change a major chord to the minor chord of the same letter name. When building a harmonized scale. you use the proper scale tone for the key.

[FrankHS]

Originally Posted by JonPR

(Notice we don't need to know the scale: the chord name is a result of its intervals, related to a shorthand interval naming system.)....

Again, this is all[I] independent of scales.

*I* need to know the scale notes because of what happens with inversions. Amin (ACE) can be played CEA, where the intervals become MAJOR third plus a fourth, and still an Amin (in some cases.) Of course root positions are where to start.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by FrankHS

*I* need to know the scale notes because of what happens with inversions. Amin (ACE) can be played CEA, where the intervals become MAJOR third plus a fourth, and still an Amin (in some cases.)

I don't follow. What does that have to do with scales?

Originally Posted by FrankHS

Of course root positions are where to start.

To understand chord structure, yes. And of course the "1-3-5" principle is based on 7-note scales. The numbers are counting letters (lines and spaces in notation)!
But those scales could be anything. The 7 letters in any order, and with any kinds of 2nds between them (minor, major, augmented).
It's the intervals you need to know. The language is interval language. That's how both scales and chords are named.

What I mean is, if you play the notes CEA, then simple counting tells you that that's a 3rd with a 4th on top (and a 6th between the outer notes).
To discover what the chord is, you arrange the notes in alternate letters, which is how you get ACE.
What you need to know then is what kind of 3rd A-C is and what kind of 5th A-E is. (The C-E interval is not relevant.)

Of course, if you already know the "A minor scale", that's easy. I.e., I'm well aware that people seem to learn scales before they learn about intervals - which is what leads to the misunderstanding that "major" chords come from "major scales", and "minor" chords come from "minor scales." (Major and minor scales both contain three major chords, three minors, and one diminished.)

Again, it's not a huge problem! We all get to a proper understanding in the end. Different routes all lead - eventually! - to the same point. I certainly learned scales first. (But then I also learned a lot of music before I learned any theory... ) It definitely took me many years to develop the hindsight that saw the simple picture! I.e., that intervals are the "atoms" of music, from which scales, chords and melodies are constructed. Single notes mean nothing until they are paired with another.

[Horseflesh]

I made myself a chord cheat sheet emphasizing the intervals. Did I make any errors?

(It's not intended to show all the chords, just the most common ones, but I may add to it later.)

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Horseflesh

I made myself a chord cheat sheet emphasizing the intervals. Did I make any errors?

(It's not intended to show all the chords, just the most common ones, but I may add to it later.)

Your chart is exactly right (correct interval distances, correct numbering). Just a couple of descriptions need tweaking:

1. The 7th on the dominant 7th and minor 7th chords is "minor", not "diminished". "Diminished "means "smaller than either perfect or minor."

Major 7th interval = 11 half-steps (as on the "maj7" chord).
Minor 7th interval = 10 half-steps (as on the dom7, m7 and m7b5 chords)
Diminished 7th = 9 half-steps: as on the "dim7" chord; which you should add to your chart! 1 - b3 - b5 - bb7 (1 less than b7).

This is why using "b7" can get confusing. We commonly use that in scales= descriptions to mean "lower than a major 7th" (not lower than a "natural" 7th). But chord symbol language regards the minor 7th as the default. Hence "maj7" is used when the default 7th is raised.

In a G7 chord, the 7th is F natural. Not "Fb"! In "Gmaj7" the 7th is F#. The F in G7 is only a "flat 7" in relation to the G major scale 7th. But chords are not defined (named) by scales, but by their intervals.
Of course, we can derive G7 by starting from the G major scale and flattening the 7th. But G7 is found naturally (diatonically) in the C major and C harmonic minor scales. And the 7th interval itself is "minor" (smaller than "major").

The dim7 interval is the same size as a major 6th, but the spelling is what matters.
B-Ab is a diminished 7th: 7 notes, smaller than B-A, or Bb-Ab);
B-G# is a major 6th: 6 notes, larger than B-G (minor 6th).
Major 6ths can be added to major or minor triads, but never to dim triads. If they are, the chord is just an inverted dim7.
B D F Ab = Bdim7. B D F G# = "G#dim7/B", not "Bm6b5".

2. A "sus4" is better thought of as the 4th replacing the 3rd. When you "raise" a chord tone, it means you are altering it by making it sharp (minor to major, or perfect to augmented (or major to augmented).
E.g. "Fsus4" has a Bb, not an A#!
It might seem a pedantic point, but the numbers in chord symbols represent letter counts. The "4" means the 4th letter after F, which is B. And it's Bb (not B natural) because a suspended 4th is always a perfect 4th.
I.e., again the chord is independent of a scale. If you spell the chord F-B-C, that's some weird dissonant chord that nobody really uses. (Some people call it a "lydian triad", but it's so rare as to not be worth worrying about.)

And you could add the two 7th chords built on the dim triad. They are fairly rare in pop and rock, but extremely common in jazz.

       |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |
dim7 = 1  .  . b3  .  . b5 . . . bb7 .  . (1)
m7b5 = 1  .  . b3  .  . b5 . . .  . b7  . (1)

In jazz, 7ths are also fairly common on aug triads, and again there are two choices:

         |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | 
   7#5 = 1  .  .  .  3  .  .  . #5  .  b7 . (1)
maj7#5 = 1  .  .  .  3  .  .  . #5  .  .  7 (1)

The former is much more common than the latter, and is a form of "altered dominant". I.e., it's regarded as a dom7 where the 5th is raised, rather than an aug triad with a b7 added.
But don't feel you need to add these to your chart just yet! A useful thought is that in jazz they use 7th chords (not triads) as the basic form, and there are six types:

• Dom7 (maj triad + min7)
• Maj7 (maj triad + maj7)
• min7 (min triad + min7)
• m(maj7) (min triad + maj7)
• m7b5 (dim triad + min7) aka "half-diminished"
• dim7(dim triad + dim7) aka "fully diminished"

I.e. they don't consider aug or sus triads as basic forms at all. They occur quite frequently, but as alterations of dom7 chords.
It's in rock music where you find sus chords (both triad kinds) more often than almost any kind of 7th. And aug triads are fairly rare anyway. (Very distinctive when you hear them, just less common than all the others.)

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by Horseflesh

I made myself a chord cheat sheet emphasizing the intervals. Did I make any errors?

(It's not intended to show all the chords, just the most common ones, but I may add to it later.)

Blimey! I have no idea what chords I'm playing or the names of the notes in them. When I'm arranging a new song I just move my fingers around on the fretboard. until it sounds right and plays easily. It's a very quick job.

I'm not one for reverse engineering something that's pretty simple to do (finding the right chords by ear) into a rocket science. But, I suppose that if I ever needed to write down one of my arrangements then being able to speak rocket science would be useful. So far, for the last 50 years or so, all I have had to say is "It goes like this" and the folks that I play with are on it straight away.

It is horses for courses though. I can read a 4 part choir score. And I can read a piano score, although I can't play a note. I can hear and sing intervals, and pitch complex harmonies. But on guitar I don't read music or Tab, I just wing it!!!

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Blimey! I have no idea what chords I'm playing or the names of the notes in them. When I'm arranging a new song I just move my fingers around on the fretboard. until it sounds right and plays easily.

That's the way it should be done!

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

I'm not one for reverse engineering something that's pretty simple to do (finding the right chords by ear) into a rocket science. But, I suppose that if I ever needed to write down one of my arrangements then being able to speak rocket science would be useful.

Exactly.
But some people actually like to write their songs and arrangements down, for the same reason that if you were a storyteller, you might like to write your stories down, even just for yourself. So the right spelling and grammar comes in useful there.
I do agree that music is all just sound in the end, and we have to understand it as nothing but sound. The meanings are all in the sounds, not in the labels for the sounds.
But the speech analogy holds. People don't have to be able to even read or write (let alone spell correctly!) to be able to speak very eloquently and understand each other. But being literate enables you to learn things from books and so on that you would never encounter by ear.

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

So far, for the last 50 years or so, all I have had to say is "It goes like this" and the folks that I play with are on it straight away.

Lucky you! I guess you have always worked with guitarists, in that case? And/or bass players and drummers? Or pro-standard musicians who are really good at picking stuff up by ear? (I'm not disputing your claim, I'm genuinely envious, and I suspect your experience is unusual,(

Personally - in my 55+ years playing - I've very rarely worked with professionals who need notation to work from (horn players usually), but most of the bands I've been in (at least 95% amateurs) have needed to be told the chords I'm using. Even the ones with very good ears usually like to have something in writing to refer to, or verbal confirmation of chords here and there.
Of course they don't need to know the theoretical terms for the chord structures, but they know chord names and how to play the chords. And all of them would also understand what it means to "add a 6th" or a "sus4", if necessary. They would not appreciate me just saying "it goes like this" (demonstrating by ear alone), because it saves so much time to at least name the chords, and (even better) to give out a chord chart - even on quite simple songs. And of course, if I'm working with a pianist, I can't describe a chord by saying "put your fingers here and here". Again, they might be good enough to hear what I'm playing (not just the chords, but the form, the metre and so on), but even so, saying a few chord names (theoretically correct ones!) is going to save of a lot of bother.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Of course they don't need to know the theoretical terms for the chord structures, but they know chord names and how to play the chords. And all of them would also understand what it means to "add a 6th" or a "sus4", if necessary. They would not appreciate me just saying "it goes like this" (demonstrating by ear alone), because it saves so much time to at least name the chords, and (even better) to give out a chord chart - even on quite simple songs. And of course, if I'm working with a pianist, I can't describe a chord by saying "put your fingers here and here". Again, they might be good enough to hear what I'm playing (not just the chords, but the form, the metre and so on), but even so, saying a few chord names (theoretically correct ones!) is going to save of a lot of bother.

Thinking about it - I'm pretty sure that I do that. I may say something like "hold the IV for another bar before moving back to the root". Particularly when I played with a bluegrass band I would use the Nashville system. But most of the time, as I played dobro, I was a follower. Had to watch the lead like a hawk as he would randomly lengthen measures or cut measures, or throw in a passing chord, or roll a turnaround - quite at random during a gig!!! It was very much Pirate Code playing - "Them that falls behind gets left behind". God knows how we got away with it!!!!

Playing solo now, I don't write much down except I have the words to all the songs I know on my phone so I can learn them wherever I am. Deliberately, they are on a device too small to be tempted to take it on stage or to a session etc. Words are to be learnt by heart.

Back to major or minor - I've just started working up the Welsh folk song Ar Lan Y Mor (voice and guitar) for a solo slot within a choir concert to be held on Wednesday week. It is one of those melodies that is major but can sound minor. I used to play the tune a few year's back on dulcimer set against drones and it became very ambiguous. For my Travis picked guitar backing I play a sus6 on the V chord (2x020x), which in itself is ambiguous. In fact the whole piece is a very simple 1 finger chord, a 3 finger chord and a two finger chord - apart from the lead break I'm at present building where I go to 4 fingers at one point for a pull-off. I've got 10 days until the performance so I should have the whole piece flowing nicely by then.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Thinking about it - I'm pretty sure that I do that. I may say something like "hold the IV for another bar before moving back to the root". Particularly when I played with a bluegrass band I would use the Nashville system.

Right - I guessed you might have been being a little "economical with the truth"
Hard to get by all the time saying nothing but "it goes like this".

At the same time, we're in agreement about the value of deeper theoretical analysis, digging into more jargon. It's peripheral at best when it comes to composing and performing (even improvising), and can result in over-thinking, getting in the way of the flow.
But it serves a purpose for two kinds of people: (1) those who are simply curious about that side of musical culture (including history and science); (2) those who actually feel uncomfortable if they can't name what they are doing, who like to feel there is a solid foundation of "rules".
I'm in the former camp - while trying to keep the art of performance totally separate from that.
As for "rules", of course there are rules, but the only ones that matter are the intuitive ones, not the ones we read about in books. They all amount to "make it sound good" - in whatever way we define "good".

[Horseflesh]

Thanks for those detailed notes JonPR! That's so helpful.

In case it wasn't clear from my having made a diagram, I am very much the kind of person who likes to know the system behind things!

Maybe if I had played guitar since I was a kid and came into adulthood just already knowing how everything sounded, and able to play whatever I wanted, then I never would have cared about the system that underlies everything... But I started guitar as an analytical adult. Learning the system is essential to my enjoyment. It was mindblowing when I first learned about the chords in a key and the basics of chord progressions, and I see this kind of thing as the next step.

Also, I am learning bass, and knowing the intervals between chord tones is extremely useful there if you want to improvise accompaniment.

Edit to add:

> I'm not one for reverse engineering something that's pretty simple to do (finding the right chords by ear) into a rocket science.

If you found that simple as a beginner I don't want to hear about it. It certainly isn't simple yet for me.

[Horseflesh]

Hey @JonPR, thanks again for the feedback on my chord diagram. I incorporated your notes on the chord descriptions that needed fixing ... I also tried to add the names of the intervals, including the alternate forms like Min 7th vs Aug 6th. Could you take a look to see if I screwed anything up? It's quite likely, the varying names for the same intervals can be pretty confusing!

Once I have this right I will extend the chart with the jazzy chords you noted ... Though as a beginner it will be a while before I need to play them.