No need to worry about CITES any more?

[vintage40s]

Originally Posted by IndyHD28

... should the CITES bureaucrats implement additional unnecessary radical restrictions...

CITES does not have bureaucrats. It has delegates, from countries that ratified the CITES treaty, and they negotiate and vote on rules at international conventions held around the world. For instance, at the 2016 convention, "the music community called for streamlining and harmonizing permit requirements for instruments that contain rosewood, ivory, tortoiseshell, and other material regulated under the treaty."

[UncleJesse]

Originally Posted by Tico

The question was raised about feeling safe buying BR and Mad as long as one never leaves the USA.

If states can make laws more restrictive than the federal-level CITES then even those who never leave the USA may some day regret buying a guitar with outlawed wood.

When wood is outlawed, only outlaws will have wood.

We don't have checkpoints between states. If you never sold it but instead traveled around the US how would the state ever know you had a guitar with that material? I guess maybe if you were a big name or something. Furthermore, what's to stop someone in GA to buy an ivory saddle then move to California? I understand when something has to go through customs, but US travel seems to me would be safe.

[Dreadfulnaught]

Remember that in effect, the law is whatever the TSA agent says it is when you get on the plane. I do travel internationally with a guitar, and the last time I took my Marlboro Points guitar in case it was damaged or impounded. I doubt that all of these people are wood experts.
Lest you think I’m being too paranoid, Here are two incidents. One a domestic flight, TSA saw a capo in my bag and stopped me. They thought it looked like a miniature spy gun or something. Fortunately, the TSA agent played guitar and knew what it was. On an international flight, to Mexico, no problems with TSA but was told by the Delta counter person that I’d have to buy a seat for my guitar as it would not fit in the overhead. I told her the law but she did not want to listen. I actually had a hard copy of the law and of Delta’s policy. I think she checked and found that I was right, and I got on without further incident.

These are the people who are supposed to know that completed instruments are exempt from CITES? Or tell one species of rosewood from another? Or know what some organization in Sri Lanka has decided? I have two years left in the US, and am retiring to Mexico. How I will get my guitars there without being tagged as a rosewood smuggler is an interesting problem.

[beninma]

Even if they back off a little I don't really want to touch rosewood with a 10' pole, especially Brazilian.

I don't understand why you'd be concerned about selling a BR guitar if you're buying them. They're so darn expensive you shouldn't be going for it unless you're absolutely sure and you know it's your lifetime guitar.

I saw two custom 9xx Rosewood Taylors at the factory in February that were waiting final assembly. One was Brazillian with the +$10,000 option. Even the guys at the factory thought it was a little weird & silly and were uncomfortable with it and they were just going through their stash for the guys with all the money who insist. You couldn't really visually tell the guitars apart and you'd never convince me in a million years the difference would make any difference in the quality of the music made.

I don't really care if Chinese furniture is the bigger problem, I don't want to be part of the problem at all.

[Red_Label]

Originally Posted by beninma

[snip]

I don't really care if Chinese furniture is the bigger problem, I don't want to be part of the problem at all.

So you just own/play carbon fiber guitars?


At 51, having played for 35 years... I'm old school. If I see a guitar that I want, and can afford it... I'll buy it. CITES isn't a concern. My son has one of two of the only Brazilian guitars I've ever owned. He's not hauling it across international lines, so it is not a concern. I think it's sad that we've come to a place where owning a guitar with thin back/sides is starting to be taboo. It's a work of art that will bring joy to many people over its lifetime. Pile up all of the Brazilian rosewood that has been used for guitars... and I don't imagine that pile would be all that big. While I acknowledge the value and absolute necessity of living trees, I also think that the things created using their wood are of value as well. We can (and should) be responsible in their use, without declaring absolutes.

Btw... I don't view wood and ivory through the same lens. Having said that, ivory collected from an animal that has died naturally is fine with me.

[vintage40s]

Originally Posted by Dreadfulnaught

... TSA... These are the people who are supposed to know that completed instruments are exempt from CITES? Or tell one species of rosewood from another? Or know what some organization in Sri Lanka has decided?... am retiring to Mexico. How I will get my guitars there without being tagged as a rosewood smuggler is an interesting problem.

What is the particular organization in Sri Lanka?
183 countries have signed the CITES treaty.
TSA cannot tell one wood from another, so they rely on the CITES certificate.
As I read CITES, completed instruments are not exempt and do need a certificate that would say when they were built with what rosewood.
I don't see why your rosewood guitars would be of concern leaving the US, but Mexican Customs Authority might be interested in their entry, since that country joined CITES in 1991.

[vintage40s]

Originally Posted by Red_Label

... My son has one of two of the only Brazilian guitars I've ever owned. He's not hauling it across international lines, so it is not a concern. I think it's sad that we've come to a place where owning a guitar with thin back/sides is starting to be taboo...

It is not a taboo. It is a voluntary international effort to protect an endangered wood, and only affects instruments built of that wood after a certain date.
You need a certificate that tells when the instrument was made, what kind of rosewood it has, and where the rosewood came from.
CITES is of interest to me because:
1. I bought a BRW Martin D-35 in 1969 long before CITES. If I wanted to take it into another CITES country on vacation, like Canada or Dominican Republic or Mexico, would Martin now generate a certificate for me?
2. I am looking at an EIR guitar from Vietnam, made for and sold by Terry Pack Guitars in the UK. A new shipment is due soon.
http://www.terrypackguitars.com/plrs/
Before buying, I must discuss CITES with the seller to be sure the guitar has the proper certification to prevent it from being seized by US Customs.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Erithon

@UncleJesse: I believe Andrew was taking a moral position due to the harvesting of these woods (he has written on this in other threads, and he is not alone), not expressing concern over import/export regulations.

thank you Erithon, you are correct - but to clarify for all - I was very affected by the statement of a local classic guitar maker who showed me his stack of tonewoods, which included a large pile of Madagascar.
It was spectacular woods, and then he sighed and said - "...and I can no longer use it".

He explained that he had discovered how it had been harvested, how local people had been killed in the process and that, in conscience, he felt that he would be complicit in those deaths and dodgy dealings if he used it.

to be fair, almost all of his guitars are shipped out of the UK and across the world, and whilst this was before CITES listed it, it was known to be likely that there would be increased issues.
his strength of feelings shook me and I did further researches and spoke with other techs, and made my decision.

Further, to address the other factor about traveling - the USA is a large country geographically and population wise. The UK is a small part of Europe (I'm not talking politically) and we travel across international borders far more than most Americans.
as and when I put a guitar on ebay, I get enquirers from all over the EU, and have bought from various countries.
I don't need the hassle of restricted materials.



I have a number of very fine guitars. most are sitka on Honduras mahogany and EIR and I don't feel the need for more aesthetically beautiful instruments, than the fine ones I now possess ...well maybe just one more!

[UncleJesse]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

thank you Erithon, you are correct - but to clarify for all - I was very affected by the statement of a local classic guitar maker who showed me his stack of tonewoods, which included a large pile of Madagascar.
It was spectacular woods, and then he sighed and said - "...and I can no longer use it".

He explained that he had discovered how it had been harvested, how local people had been killed in the process and that, in conscience, he felt that he would be complicit in those deaths and dodgy dealings if he used it.

to be fair, almost all of his guitars are shipped out of the UK and across the world, and whilst this was before CITES listed it, it was known to be likely that there would be increased issues.
his strength of feelings shook me and I did further researches and spoke with other techs, and made my decision.

Further, to address the other factor about traveling - the USA is a large country geographically and population wise. The UK is a small part of Europe (I'm not talking politically) and we travel across international borders far more than most Americans.
as and when I put a guitar on ebay, I get enquirers from all over the EU, and have bought from various countries.
I don't need the hassle of restricted materials.



I have a number of very fine guitars. most are sitka on Honduras mahogany and EIR and I don't feel the need for more aesthetically beautiful instruments, than the fine ones I now possess ...well maybe just one more!

Thanks for the input. I was unaware of that issue.

[Red_Label]

Originally Posted by vintage40s

It is not a taboo. It is a voluntary international effort to protect an endangered wood, and only affects instruments built of that wood after a certain date.
You need a certificate that tells when the instrument was made, what kind of rosewood it has, and where the rosewood came from.
CITES is of interest to me because:
1. I bought a BRW Martin D-35 in 1969 long before CITES. If I wanted to take it into another CITES country on vacation, like Canada or Dominican Republic or Mexico, would Martin now generate a certificate for me?
2. I am looking at an EIR guitar from Vietnam, made for and sold by Terry Pack Guitars in the UK. A new shipment is due soon.
http://www.terrypackguitars.com/plrs/
Before buying, I must discuss CITES with the seller to be sure the guitar has the proper certification to prevent it from being seized by US Customs.

I know what CITES is. By "taboo" I meant those who are afraid to touch anything made of one of the affected woods, regardless of age or legality.