#16
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Those dam tube pedals are like gophers in the digital garden = ya just never know when they are gonna pop up
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Enjoy the Journey.... Kev... KevWind at Soundcloud KevWind at YouYube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD System : Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1 Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Sonoma 14.4 |
#17
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I read every post here, carefully --especially Bob's ...love it when you post, sir!--- and find myself in much the same company as many here, as well as the OP. My simplified (simplistic?) experience:
1. Modelers are a deep dive into that world that takes time and diligence to get what you really want from them. I have spent some time there. But ultimately, that time I had found was far better spent on playing and learning more guitar. 2. Modelers have come a long way since their inception, and now can sound amazing. And given the huge shift to IEMs and "quiet" stages, they will likely be the norm and all else will be the outliers. But that doesn't prompt me to go there as I can still do what I need to do the "analog" way; not because my way is better, but simply because I have learned to make it work. This is timestamped, for sure. Like I won't play with a band that uses IEMs which clearly limits me, but I'm ok with that. 3. It may sound silly, and admittedly simplistic, but I just want to "turn a knob" to get me musically where I want to be. And I am no luddite as I embrace "tech" wholly, but only when it gets me where I want to be. A simple example is my pedalboard which is a smattering of analog and digital solely for the tone I want, but at the ease of getting there. Ease. There ain't no shortage of folks smarter and more diligent than me, but modeling is like learning a new instrument. And I'd rather play and hone what I know than branch to new ground that I doubt will bring me more feel-goods. That said, I do want to pick up piano in these, my later years. But to me, this "newness" represents far more feel-goods than whatever modelers can offer. So far, so good. In my lifetime, I think I'll be ok without this newness ...I "think" so at least but may be proven otherwise at any given time when the next "breakthrough" comes along. Edward |
#18
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Of course, if you want to go farther back in history, crystal radios, which date back to the late 1800s, were analog devices that technically could be considered solid-state, so you could say the first solid state devices were analog.
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Patrick 2012 Martin HD-28V 1984 Martin Shenandoah D-2832 2018 Gretsch G5420TG Oscar Schmidt Autoharp, unknown vintage ToneDexter Bugera V22 Infinium |
#19
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Bob
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"It is said, 'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.' " Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion, The Fellowship of the Ring THE MUSICIAN'S ROOM (my website) |
#20
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"Driving in my car, smoking my cigar, the only time I'm happy's when I play my guitar " ahh ahh ahh ah ahh I'm bettin the tubes are being driven at about 1:32
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Enjoy the Journey.... Kev... KevWind at Soundcloud KevWind at YouYube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD System : Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1 Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Sonoma 14.4 |
#21
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I’ve been a fan of modelers since I got a 1st-gen POD in the ‘90s. I think they sound great, even though I have many amps, both tube and SS. I tend to not think too much about what I’m doing with them, or what they’re doing, only about how they sound. Sounds obvious, but all those parameters and options can just get in the way of the good stuff that’s in there. The late producer David Briggs, who produced all of Neil Young’s best records and many others, had a sign on his studio wall that said, “the more you think, the more you stink”. It could probably be taken partly as hyperbole, but he meant it, and there is much truth in it. I try to take these complex machines and get the best possible sounds with the least tweaking. If a patch stinks, I don’t try to turn crap into gold, I dump it immediately. There’s too much good stuff that can be turned into great stuff with a few simple adjustments.
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#22
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Bob
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"It is said, 'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.' " Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion, The Fellowship of the Ring THE MUSICIAN'S ROOM (my website) |
#23
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Yep - sorry I was sloppy in my writing and thinking....being lazy as I replied. I was thinking of the old tube-amp versus transistor amp debate, wherein tube-amp-purists might say "you cant get great sound with transistors" meanwhile there entire pedal chain is transistors......
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Fazool "The wand chooses the wizard, Mr. Potter" Taylor GC7, GA3-12, SB2-C, SB2-Cp...... Ibanez AVC-11MHx , AC-240 |
#24
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I've been using one of those since the 1980's, daily. Have always appreciated the Chandler tube driver.
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#25
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I'd like expand on a comment I made in my initial post and that Bob Womack amplified in his post (#3). It's not so much that modeler users are trying to copy tube amps. What we are doing is attempting to capture what tube amps do. What follows is my present understanding of the situation...which may be wrong.
Old school tube amps produce a number of effects as you turn up the volume knob. The pre-amp and power amp tubes overdrive and distort, the rectifier compresses and the tonal shape of the output changes, usually in ways pleasing to the human ear. Capturing these effects in a modeler is a challenge. Pre-amp distortion is different from power amp overdrive. The former tends to be more "square shouldered" and less pleasing to the ear than the latter's "soft shouldered" effect. In my experience, it's fairly easy to capture pre-amp distortion; it's far more difficult to capture the meat of power amp overdrive. In other words, it's easier to sound like Kirk Hammett on any Metallica album than Eric Clapton on Live Cream Volume 2. Capturing the effect of a tube rectifier is even more tricky and requires the use of compression in ways that tube amp users take for granted. For example, my basic signal chain now includes some degree of compression, whereas I never used it in the past with tube amps. I guess I wasn't aware of the compression that the amp was handling for me. But you have to manually created it in a modeler, because it's essential in order to generate the right amount of sustain, particularly on leads high on the fretboard. Finally, the tonal change that occurs with increasing volume requires becoming familiar with an EQ somewhere in the signal chain as well as the use of high- and low-pass filters. I rarely used the former in the old days, and I didn't even understand the use of the latter until recently. Guitarists who don't do this end up with a tonal range that's too wide and doesn't merge well with the rest of the band. You have to refine your sonic bandwidth with the sensibilities of an audio engineer. Finally, with all this gear in the signal path, you need a carefully adjusted noise gate to keep everything quiet while not killing the sustain you worked so hard to create. In my mind, users of modelers have to come to terms with all of this, assembling and refining basic amp tones piece by piece. Then on top, you have to add reverb and frequently some kind of delay to capture room effects. It's a big task just trying to capture a basic tone, and that's before you add snazzier effects. If you're in a cover band trying to sound like everyone from ABBA to ZZ Top, the challenge can be overwhelming. So, why don't I just use tube amps? Good question. Maybe I need to rethink this whole modeler initiative. The basic reason is because everything I do ultimately comes back to me thru headphones. No one ever hears me play. That requirement complicates the signal chain and ups the ante on cost. Also, to be candid, historically I haven't had all that much luck with tube amps. I just end up buying pedals to compensate for some shortcoming in the amp, and I've grown weary of chasing the latest and greatest pedal. I'd rather just move a slider on a computer screen. Try as I might to find a "Dummies" or "Idiot's" guide to teach me all of this, I've had to study it by prowling the dark alleys of the internet and by reading manuals not written to be understood. I'm often thrown by basic terminology. I think I need to rent a teenager to guide me. |
#26
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The one thing I found that put it all over the top was placing a compressor (Boss CS3; Keeley, et al) in front of everything; after that, the tones are completely convincing...just needs that extra squash. Other than that I replaced the old Eminence 12" in the Butler with a Celestion V30; the whole rig weighs about 30lbs and it sings!
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Larrivee L-10 Custom Larrivee DV-10K Larrivee L-03 Taylor 412K ('96) Yamaha LL16-12 (SOLD) PRS 'Studio' (SOLD) Rickenbacker 660-12 (SOLD) Fender USA Deluxe Strat Fender USA Roadhouse Strat Fender MIM/USA Partscaster Fender MIM Nashville Tele Kelsey Custom Hardtail Strat Fender MIM P-Bass |
#27
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What's the worst that could happen? Last edited by Charlie Bernstein; 12-02-2023 at 06:36 PM. |
#28
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I'm bettin' there's a Dallas Rangemaster between the guitar and the amp.
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#29
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https://theproaudiofiles.com/eric-cl...%20never%20did. An excerpt from that article
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Enjoy the Journey.... Kev... KevWind at Soundcloud KevWind at YouYube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD System : Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1 Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Sonoma 14.4 |
#30
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There are plenty of good solid-state amps. (I'd love a Roland Blues Cube!) So what's the big deal with tube amps? The sound changes as you play. You're an acoustic maven, so you get it: Some gear opens up with use. A triangle doesn't. A D-18 does. The difference between a folk guitar and a tube amp is that folk guitars open over weeks, months, and years, while tube amps open up over minutes and hours as they heat up. And it's unpredictable. Was the amp in a cold pickup bed? Is this room a lot bigger than the last gig? Are you playing the same kind of music tonight you played last night? So when you're on stage or at a jam, you're interacting with your amp. It's a conversation. You're constantly finding another sweet spot where there wasn't one a few minutes ago. Tone-chaser heaven. And transistors in the chain doesn't change that. I have a tube amp and a solid-state: a 1965 Fender Bassman and a 2020 Quilter. Nothing wrong with the Quilter. Sounds good. I like it. Glad I bought it. But tube mojo? Fergiddit. No doubt someday someone will figure out how to emulate it. But until it happens, tubes will be the go-to for electric tone freaks everywhere — just like solid wood will be the go-to for acoustic players tracking down that pot of flattop gold. Last edited by Charlie Bernstein; 12-03-2023 at 03:19 PM. |