The further adventures of Santa Cruz strings

[vindibona1]

As I wanted to do some A/B pin testing on my Taylor 614ce the Elixir D string snapped (I'm sure from metal fatigue and not a reflextion on Elixir) and so it was time to change the set. I had one more set of Santa Cruz Mid Tensions to test so I thought I'd give them a go. I've got the low tensions on my 814ceDLX, and with some pin jockeying I'm kind of digging that setup.

So other than the bone saddle, I reverted all the pins in the 614 back to stock ebony. The installation was uneventful and I got the strings wound up to pitch and strummed a bit to get them to settle. After a few cycles of strumming and retuning it was time to listen critically, of course taking into account brand new fresh strings.

But that's the oddity. I expected tons of shimmer and articularity. But I didn't get that. The sound was warm and "kind of" round. I guess I'd call it lack-luster. Quite a surprise from what I'd experienced before. A very dark sound. I was really missing articulation from the bass.

My instincts told me to start by putting a buffalo horn pin in the low E. That in itself helped a ton. Not only much more articulation from the low E, but the other strings responded off of that low E as well. So there was an overall improvement in the sound from that one tweak.

And so I played awhile and think the guitar has a nice sound. And I know that these strings will sound their best in a couple days, but I thought I'd share my initial impressions, if for no other reason than they did not sound as I expected based on my experience with SC's on my 814.

I'll see how these sound in a few days. FWIW, I'm using my 814 as my "control" guitar so that I know how the 614 should sound in comparison to alert me if my ears are fooling me at any time. I had used the 614 with Elixirs while testing the 814 and SC's. So I know how these guitars tend to stack up against each other.

My off-the-cuff, spur of the moment conclusion with brand new fresh strings: If this 614 had no strings on it and I had to choose which set to put on to play a gig one hour later, I think I would have to choose the Elixirs on this guitar. On my 814 it would be the opposite. Either set would work. Also on the 814 I think I prefer Low Tension SC's- but with a mixed bridge pin set (2-2-2) of buffalo, ebony, buffalo. The 814 sounded terrific at last night's gig. Probably the best it's ever sounded.

I'm sure I'll be doing some tweaking. I may have to see if I have another set of buffalo pins for testing. Stay tuned.

[tadol]

I’ve been reading your threads, and I’m really intrigued. I can understand how a saddle change can alter the transmission of the energy of the strings to the top, but I am having a hard time with understanding how bridge pin material could affect the tone of the guitar - differences in mass would definitely have some result, and I think even a couple of grams can make a change, but the material itself? Have you eliminated the possibility that the fit of the pins, and how well they hold the strings in place in the bridge might have the most effect?

I don’t want to sound like I’m doubting you, but with all the effort you are putting into testing and reporting, I think there are more variables here than can be easily accounted for. I look forward to hearing more from your testing. Personally, I love my SC strings - I’ve found them to have good tone and playability, without any harshness and with incredible life. I just realized the set I have on my Sexauer mahog/adi 12 fret mini-D are now over a year old, and I have decided to change them soon not because I feel the need to, but I’m just wondering what I might be missing -

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by tadol

I’ve been reading your threads, and I’m really intrigued. I can understand how a saddle change can alter the transmission of the energy of the strings to the top, but I am having a hard time with understanding how bridge pin material could affect the tone of the guitar - differences in mass would definitely have some result, and I think even a couple of grams can make a change, but the material itself? Have you eliminated the possibility that the fit of the pins, and how well they hold the strings in place in the bridge might have the most effect?

I don’t want to sound like I’m doubting you, but with all the effort you are putting into testing and reporting, I think there are more variables here than can be easily accounted for. I look forward to hearing more from your testing. Personally, I love my SC strings - I’ve found them to have good tone and playability, without any harshness and with incredible life. I just realized the set I have on my Sexauer mahog/adi 12 fret mini-D are now over a year old, and I have decided to change them soon not because I feel the need to, but I’m just wondering what I might be missing -

To be honest with you Tadol.. The pins make more of a difference than the saddles! It's difficult to explain the physics or "why it works", but it does. But as far as the "other factors" go, I would have to say that a guitar has to be able to "express" the changes. My extensive testing has been limited to my two Taylors. But I have ongoing conversations behind the scenes with others who have or are doing the same thing with excellent results. But here's an excerpt from an email I got yesterday. The forum member owns several top-of-the-line guitars and has bought and sold many...

"This is exactly the lesson that so many of us did not know earlier in our lives....we can modify our acoustic instruments to get them to sound the way we have always dreamed.
Everybody does that with electrics....they change out pickups, bridges and more. And of course on many pickups you can raise them from either side. So by out little modifications of pins and saddles...it is doing the same thing. ..How many people have sold there guitar because something wasn't quite right. And maybe all it needed was a little extra push?"

The other thing to is that we often fail to remember that we aren't playing 6 individual strings, but ONE SET of strings, each interdependent on the others. In other words, when you change the response of one string it has a chain reaction on the others, to a greater or lesser extent. That's why when I changed a single pin in the above report the other strings responded as well, though to a lesser extent. It's complicated. Each string has a role. And if I were to give one solid discovery that would be that the Low E string is the most important string in the set. Change out the low E or the bridge pin in just that one string and it will affect the resonance and possibly tone of the entire guitar. However, I believe the one caveat is that cheaper, more poorly built guitars will not respond as readily as better instruments as better instruments are built to transmit vibration efficiently whereas a less expensive instrument wouldn't be optimized for it. So you won't change a $129 Mitchell into a Taylor, but any guitar can be improved at least to some degree.

I see you have "several" Santa Cruz guitars listed in your profile. What pin material(s) do they come stock with? If Ebony or bone, just get a set of Blackhorn buffalo pins and try substituting ONE pin. Then two. Then perhaps two on the inside and two on the outside. See what you hear. BTW... Buffalo is MUCH harder than bone or ebony or other woods. I know because this week I had two sets of pins that came in that needed fitting. The Malaysian blackwood pins were sanded to size in about 10 minutes. The bone pins that were the same OD as the Malaysians... Took one hour, or maybe a little more with 100 and 220 grit sand paper. So it stands to reason that the density of the material might have something to do with how the sound is affected.

I could write 20 more pages but I'll stop here and apologize for being so long winded. I didn't want to respond with "Have you ever tried it?". It doesn't matter whether you or anyone else doubts me. I have no loss or gain either way. I'm just doing what I do for myself and share what I discover along the way and hope it helps someone now or in the future.

[tadol]

Please ! Continue your experiments and continue to report! I am most intrigued -

I have far more than a few SCs, a few Sexauers, and a smattering of others - most of the SC come with ebony pins, although a couple have bone, but I’ve always treated it as a cosmetic issue more than anything else. Richard Hoover has never mentioned pins as making a difference in tone, but he probably wants to keep things as consistent as possible to minimize variables - I will have to ask him what tests he may have done. I’ve never questioned what pins Bruce uses in his builds - he’s the one who has told me about how a few grams difference in the weight of a bridge can have quite an effect on the tone and responsiveness of a guitar, and on his guitars, a few grams here or there can make a big difference.

We are having a meeting of the Northern Cal Luthiers Asso at Bruces shop tomorrow, and I will certainly raise this question with the luthiers who attend, and see if they can do some testing and evaluation before the next meeting. And I have no problem ordering a set of pins to try out, and will be happy to add my observations -

But then I’d ask - would it then make sense to slice the saddle into 6 pieces, and substituting individual pieces for each string to alter the tone or response of each one - ;-)

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by tadol

Please ! Continue your experiments and continue to report! I am most intrigued -

I have far more than a few SCs, a few Sexauers, and a smattering of others - most of the SC come with ebony pins, although a couple have bone, but I’ve always treated it as a cosmetic issue more than anything else. Richard Hoover has never mentioned pins as making a difference in tone, but he probably wants to keep things as consistent as possible to minimize variables - I will have to ask him what tests he may have done. I’ve never questioned what pins Bruce uses in his builds - he’s the one who has told me about how a few grams difference in the weight of a bridge can have quite an effect on the tone and responsiveness of a guitar, and on his guitars, a few grams here or there can make a big difference.

We are having a meeting of the Northern Cal Luthiers Asso at Bruces shop tomorrow, and I will certainly raise this question with the luthiers who attend, and see if they can do some testing and evaluation before the next meeting. And I have no problem ordering a set of pins to try out, and will be happy to add my observations -

But then I’d ask - would it then make sense to slice the saddle into 6 pieces, and substituting individual pieces for each string to alter the tone or response of each one - ;-)

While I recognize your question about the saddle is a facetious one, the obvious answer is that vibrations depend on continuous contact of surfaces. Everything is interdependent! The idea is to connect stuff the best we can, not separate it. And though it appears by using individual pins we are thinking about strings separately, what we are actually trying to do is create a match of harmonics that ring across the set and through the guitar.

My guess is that the luthiers use a standard because there is no way they can guess which strings a player will use or how individuals play. While I'm sure Richard Hoover would want you to use SC strings and Taylor pushes Elixirs and Martin pushes Martin strings most of us stray from the brands that come on our guitars once in a while. I've found that every set is balanced differently. As noted earlier, the Elixir strings required three different pin materials for my preferred balance, while the SC strings to achieve similar results seemed to like stock ebony pins with the exception of a buffalo horn pin in the 6th slot. As in interesting side note, my first encounter with SC strings, the low E went dead after 2 days. For lack of a replacement set, it was replaced by an Elixir low E which worked extremely well with the rest of the SC set. The SC's so far have seemed well balanced on my 814 requiring only two pins to find the right balance for me.

Something I just realized is that perhaps the SC's are darker sounding than I thought they would be. My 814 has buffalo pins in 1, 2, 5 and 6 and ebony in 3 and 4. Obviously I wanted the perception of the D and G strings to recede a little bit for what my ear was looking for, but I thought in that that guitar, with the low tension set I wanted a little more articulate and forward sound overall.

Elixir strings, while widely accepted and not bad sounding in my experience seem to be relatively imbalanced tonally (at least to my ear) . The Elixir's sound is all over the place on my Alvarez Yairi DY71 (cedar over koa). The D string sings out like a laser while the other strings have a cacophony of tones. No other string set is so varied from string to string. The DY71 just seems to exacerbate the issues with Elixirs that seem less obvious on my Taylors. While I can't be certain, is the development of HD light Elixirs an attempt to balance the light string set, especially given Taylor's propensity for lots of harmonics? The only thing that matters is how a string set sounds on your guitar. And often we get close with a string set choice, but with a little knowledge and the right stuff we can get closer to the sound we have in our heads. That's not to say I won't continue using Elixirs on my 614 as I have found the right pin "recipe" to bring them into balance and I can get them 30% cheaper than SC's. I'll have to see.

After the SC's had settled for several hours they seem to have regained some brilliance, which is surprising. But I think it underscores the interdependence of the strings across the set. Perhaps as they settled, the harmonics began to emerge the string overtones settled becoming more synchronous. I can't say for sure, but what other explanation is for a guitar to start sounding livlier after strings settle in? FWIW, I use my 814 as a comparative control as I know how my 614 should sound next to it. And the result after a few hours was much more satisfying.

So that's my report for now. I'm tempted to add more buffalo pins to the mix, but I have to locate any extras I have on hand. Stay tuned.

[vindibona1]

I'd left the SC mids to settle with ebony pins in 1-5 and buffalo pins in 6 (low E). Sounded pretty good, but curiosity got me wondering how everything would sound if I copy-catted the pin mix from my 814.

First (additional) trial: I added buffalo to slots 1 and 2. Yuck.
Second trial: Buffalo across all 6. Left me wanting...

...this is where it gets interesting...

I decided to go back to 5 ebony and 1 buffalo but inadvertently left a buffalo pin in the A string, so I had 4 ebony pins 1-4 and buffalo in 5 and 6. Did not sound good at all. At first I was perplexed having thought that I'd removed 5 buffalo pins but in reality only removed the upper 4. "Hmmm", I thought. So I removed the buffalo in 5 replacing it with ebony, restoring my 614 to 5 ebony, 1 buffalo.... BOOM!

My other half was in the room with me as I did this. She has great ears but wouldn't know a 000 from a jumbo. She said the difference, just swapping out that last A string buffalo with ebony was, in her words, "significant". Frankly I didn't expect to hear much difference changing out that 5th slot, but I couldn't have been more wrong. I usually use pins in pairs, but I will have to revisit that and certainly can't create a rule of using pairs.

If anyone takes anything away from this it would be that all the strings are interdependent of one another and changing any aspect of one string changes everything. I've found that by just swapping low E strings and from this set of tests, a single bridge pin in the low E made all the difference. YMMV

[tadol]

So - I did bring this up today at our meeting, and the concensus was that none of the luthiers had ever tested different pins, and other than the mass they added to the bridge, and possibly the fit, that they’d expect no audible difference between different pins. So I am not saying you’re wrong, but I would say that I need to order some horn pins and see if I can hear a similar difference.

This did bring up a very interesting discussion about the physics of how the bridge transmits string energy into the top, and the interaction between the bridge, soundboard, bridgeplate, and bracing. There were some strong opinions, and some additional discussion re: trapeze tailpieces, pinless bridges, classical guitars, and archtops. We all agreed that the acoustic guitar was a rather complex piece of work -

But it did then offer a very interesting lead-in to our main presenter, James May, who is responsible for the ToneDexter and the Ultratonic pickup, both of which are excellently designed tools to help take the rather complex piece of work mentioned above and making it much louder without losing the tone and character of a great sounding acoustic guitar. He installed one of his pickups into one of Bruces pernambuco guitars, and it was really great sounding even at extremely high volume. His installation technique was quite interesting, and I think I’ll add a thread on the build and repair section as his technique would work for a few different pickups -

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by tadol

So - I did bring this up today at our meeting, and the concensus was that none of the luthiers had ever tested different pins, and other than the mass they added to the bridge, and possibly the fit, that they’d expect no audible difference between different pins. So I am not saying you’re wrong, but I would say that I need to order some horn pins and see if I can hear a similar difference.

This did bring up a very interesting discussion about the physics of how the bridge transmits string energy into the top, and the interaction between the bridge, soundboard, bridgeplate, and bracing. There were some strong opinions, and some additional discussion re: trapeze tailpieces, pinless bridges, classical guitars, and archtops. We all agreed that the acoustic guitar was a rather complex piece of work -

But it did then offer a very interesting lead-in to our main presenter, James May, who is responsible for the ToneDexter and the Ultratonic pickup, both of which are excellently designed tools to help take the rather complex piece of work mentioned above and making it much louder without losing the tone and character of a great sounding acoustic guitar. He installed one of his pickups into one of Bruces pernambuco guitars, and it was really great sounding even at extremely high volume. His installation technique was quite interesting, and I think I’ll add a thread on the build and repair section as his technique would work for a few different pickups -

I'm not surprised that the luthiers never really did a lot of pin testing. It seems it is rarely a consideration. I'm not sure than many, if many consider the tonal properties of the pins themselves. Some go with bone, some with ebony I think often "just because". I think Taylor's choice of Ebony is a good one. One day I'll have to try them in my Martin which currently has bone, but I'm quite satisfied with the sound I'm getting without experimentation.

Ebony is a fine material, richer in sound than bone in many instances, I think. I tried bone pins in my 614 when I first got it and much preferred the ebony. This is long before I got into the pin testing thing. Even back before I got involved in string testing or pins or saddles or anything I could hear a significant difference.

You seem quite knowledgeable regarding guitars and building, yet it appears you consider the pin thing to be mostly voodoo. But I assure you it's not. Sure, go buy some Buffalo horn pins. But for you, I'm going to suggest a different sort of experiment. Take a couple pins and put them in different place. How about high E and low E to start. Or maybe just on the A string. Just on the low E. If I can get you to "wreck" the sound first, then I can get you to believe that you can also correct the sound. With SC guitars (I don't know Sexauer at all) you may find one or more Buffalo pins an improvement, or maybe not. But if you well functioning ears, you WILL hear a difference. Then it's up to skill to learn to identify what if anything needs a little help. In the case of my 614, I've found that with the SC mid tension strings, a simply buffalo pin in the low E position is all that is needed. But that one, small, simple mod makes a significant difference. All the 614 needed was a bit of bass boost and articulation. The increased presence of the low E also affected the harmonics of the other strings in a positive way. So as I said earlier, all the strings are interdependent and work as a single unit comprised of 6 strings. In many if not most cases, when you change one string you change the way the others react as well. Change from one brand or type of string to another and the optimal pin selection and positioning might be considerably different as I found going from Elixirs to SC's in my 614. So these mods do not have an isolated affect, but a composite one.

I hope to get some recordings going soon, but need to experiment on the best way to get the best representation of the sound without coloration.

As I said... One part art. One part science. One part voodoo.