Factory made guitars VS High-end Luthier made guitars !!!!!

[RP]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

My sense is that there are those of us (maybe few, maybe many, I don't really know) who are just as happy with a factory built guitar as we would be with a boutique instrument. There could be many reasons why. For me, maybe my skills are not enough to bring out what is special in a boutique instrument, or maybe certain aspects of a guitar that are important to me can be had in a factory instrument. I think those are both true for me. I can honestly say that I am just as happy with a decent Taylor or carbon fiber McPherson as I was with any boutique instrument. If it plays easy and sounds good, it is good enough for me.

Tony

Tony points out what I was trying to say earlier in this thread. It really depends just as much, if not more, on the player as the guitar(s) being played...

[brencat]

I have two 1st-gen pre-VTS Authentics that will torch 98% of what I’ve played or owned to date, including some very nice stuff by Goodall, Collings, and Santa Cruz...which is why they’re in my stable now and the others aren’t. And the tops on the Martins aren’t even tap tuned.

Better is only better if it meets YOUR needs.

[wisedennis]

Originally Posted by brencat

I have two 1st-gen pre-VTS Authentics that will torch 98% of what I’ve played or owned to date, including some very nice stuff by Goodall, Collings, and Santa Cruz...which is why they’re in my stable now and the others aren’t. And the tops on the Martins aren’t even tap tuned.

Better is only better if it meets YOUR needs.

What model and what year are they?
Almost want to buy an good "authentic" Martin

[SkipII]

What is a factory? What is a luthier?

The definition and traditional boundaries of both are shifting. If by factory you mean a production line where no one person sees the instrument to its finish, and by a luthier you mean that slightly wizened, introverted craftsman (ah, Wayne Henderson?!) crouched over his bench with his hand chisels... There are still an abundance of the fomer and vestiges of the latter, but the two production models are coming closer together, largely because of technology.

Many small luthier shops are using CNC (actually have to if they expect to stay in business) while factories are becoming more sophisticated in selecting and voicing tone woods, given that the old days of having an abundance of quality wood available are fading rapidly.

My Furch Red Plus Grand Auditorium cutaway with cedar top and rosewood back and sides (Gc-CR) is an example. The company was birthed by a luthier and that DNA is still there in the guitars today, but his son has introduced CNC, has developed sustainable forestry practices with this suppliers, and uses sonic wave methods rather than tap tones to voice the tops of his higher end guitars.

Practically, and perhaps ideally, some of the best guitars borrow methods from both -- CNC for precision and consistency, hand methods for detailing and voicing -- and all subject to the dwindling supply of premium tone woods.

To whatever extent there is still a "difference" only your ears can tell you.

[brencat]

Originally Posted by wisedennis

What model and what year are they?
Almost want to buy an good "authentic" Martin

2007 000-18 Authentic 1937, and 2008 D-18 Authentic 1937

Both bought used right here in the AGF classifieds.

[Dbone]

Originally Posted by SkipII

What is a factory? What is a luthier?

The definition and traditional boundaries of both are shifting. If by factory you mean a production line where no one person sees the instrument to its finish, and by a luthier you mean that slightly wizened, introverted craftsman (ah, Wayne Henderson?!) crouched over his bench with his hand chisels... There are still an abundance of the fomer and vestiges of the latter, but the two production models are coming closer together, largely because of technology.

Many small luthier shops are using CNC (actually have to if they expect to stay in business) while factories are becoming more sophisticated in selecting and voicing tone woods, given that the old days of having an abundance of quality wood available are fading rapidly.

My Furch Red Plus Grand Auditorium cutaway with cedar top and rosewood back and sides (Gc-CR) is an example. The company was birthed by a luthier and that DNA is still there in the guitars today, but his son has introduced CNC, has developed sustainable forestry practices with this suppliers, and uses sonic wave methods rather than tap tones to voice the tops of his higher end guitars.

Practically, and perhaps ideally, some of the best guitars borrow methods from both -- CNC for precision and consistency, hand methods for detailing and voicing -- and all subject to the dwindling supply of premium tone woods.

To whatever extent there is still a "difference" only your ears can tell you.

I think there are some good points here. There automatically seems to be a certain amount of “snobbery” that surfaces any time CNC and the like comes into the picture. I perceive such additions as an opportunity for more precise building, but that may just be me.

I too appreciate the balance that companies like Furch are bringing to their operations these days. So much so that I bought one. Should have it over the next couple of weeks.

I get the appeal behind something being completely hand made, but this does not cause me to turn my nose up at other approaches in the least.

It would be interesting to get more detailed information on Furch’s voicing process, but this info does not seem to be readily available. I suspect that this is intentional. They give only a vague description of it on their website, and in YouTube videos. By my estimation it works because every Furch that I have ever picked up has been incredible. Their products are consistently impressive.

[gr81dorn]

Originally Posted by Dbone

I think there are some good points here. There automatically seems to be a certain amount of “snobbery” that surfaces any time CNC and the like comes into the picture. I perceive such additions as an opportunity for more precise building, but that may just be me.

The vast majority of "boutique" builders use CNC machines, even those who don't have their own machine(s)farm out the manufacturing of some parts. And even those who maybe don't do that, have had forms/templates made from CNC equipment. Start calling it cheating and it's a pretty slippery slope that just ends up an argument about who is cheating less.

I talked to one highly revered luthier once who straight up told me - "I trust that computer way more than I trust myself." I also think, as you say, it's "an opportunity for more precise building".

[Pnewsom]

I think of it like this.

Consider the likely outcome of someone who attends a school of luthier, apprentices for a few years, and then stakes their livelihood on the reputation they earn for the instruments that they hand build, to that of a factory worker who has pressure from their boss to keep the production line moving.

Even if the guy on the line really cares about his work, what are the chances that everyone else on the line will feel the same for every guitar, every day?

The luthier is likely to take the time to optimize every aspect of the instrument, the others may not be so inclined or able to do so.

That effort and care shows up in the finished product. Whether it matters or not to someone selecting an instrument depends a lot on their budget and expectation.

In the long run it hardly matters, so long as you get an instrument that serves your purpose.

[s2y]

Tone and volume don't always need to be different. A lot of my decision to go custom is for the ergonomics that suit me better. Something like a thin profile neck is better for my small hands and a bevel adds a lot of comfort on deep/big acoustics.

[Methos1979]

My Martin D-1 Custom blows away any guitar I've owned or played. But then again it's a custom, so does that qualify it as a 'factory guitar'? Also, it's a 12-fret dread so the HUGE tone is as much about the HUGE body as it is the build! I've never played any dread by a high-end luthier, only 000's and smaller. And when I say 'high-end' luthier, for me that means Collings, Bourgeois, Santa Cruz, Huss & Dalton, Goodall, Froggy Bottom, etc and not say Olson or Greenfield.

We constantly see these threads and they usually end up devolving into negative posts because people are justifying or defending what they choose to pay for a guitar. I always say this: Does my $5k custom dread sound better than my son-in-law's $250 Seagull dread? Absolutely! Does it sound $4,750 better? Absolutely not! But I don't care. I buy what I want and what I can afford. Although I do wonder if I could afford an Olson would I pay that much? If I ever find myself in that lucky position, I'll let you know!

[H165]

I always get tickled by these discussions. The vast majority of non-factory builders can be tracked on a trajectory to approach factory-made quality and consistency by their adding of tools and changing materials:

I'm doing it all by hand. Oh, I'm making a side bender. I'm making jigs. I'm making forms. I'm upgrading from clamps to a go-deck. I'm upgrading my go-deck to a vacuum system.

I'm doing all inlays by hand. I'm getting a little router. I'm getting a little CNC router/cutter.

I'm hand-making my bridges. I'm getting a bandsaw. I'm getting a belt sander. I'm getting a bigger CNC machine.

I'm doing French polish. I'm doing lacquer. I'm doing catalyzed polymers. I'm doing UV cures.

I'm hand-making peones. I'm hand-cutting kerfed lining. I'm using production kerfed lining.

I'm cutting and inlaying purfling. I'm using purfling strips and cracking them in. I'm using Abalam. I'm going to Ryan's purfling.

Etc.

As for playability, I'd say a well PLEKed setup on any quality guitar will help make it pretty playable, factory or "boutique".

After that, we have the subjective stuff.....tone, feel, ergonomics, and now we're drifting off the OP's question entirely and entering the Twilight Zone..

[BrunoBlack]

For the most part these often-posted threads are predictable and entertaining. People seem to vigorously support what they own. This is no surprise. Why would we own anything else? Most of us buy the highest quality or highest perceived value within our budget. IN GENERAL - From my experience, the many factory guitars I’ve played are not as well made, do not play as well, or are not as interesting (Tone & Build) as the guitars I’ve played and purchased from small luthiers. My interpretation of quality has been inversely related to the size of the manufacturer or builder. Bigger is not better in my experience.

[Kitkatjoe]

I admire all who use their talents and skills in building a guitar.If they do it well time and time again that speaks of their dedication and success.I've got my favorite builders but God bless them all big of small!

[nikpearson]

... and the handful of very best sounding instruments have all been from what are often described as ‘boutique’ makers. The one exception was a factory made Martin OM Authentic which was quite simply the best OM I had ever played; also the only Martin I’ve ever actually considered buying.

Before people take me to task for dismissing individual luthier instruments, I have played many fine examples. Most were good instruments, some very good, and the odd one exceptional. I’ve also been studying guitar-making for the last 8 or 9 years - very much in the hand-tooled, solo luthier mould - so I have a vested interest in asserting these instruments to be superior. In my experience there is a sweet spot for builders between the large factories and the solo builders - with some outliers in all camps.

All contentious stuff and very much a matter of personal preference.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by H165

I always get tickled by these discussions. The vast majority of non-factory builders can be tracked on a trajectory to approach factory-made quality and consistency by their adding of tools and changing materials:

I'm doing it all by hand. Oh, I'm making a side bender. I'm making jigs. I'm making forms. I'm upgrading from clamps to a go-deck. I'm upgrading my go-deck to a vacuum system.

I'm doing all inlays by hand. I'm getting a little router. I'm getting a little CNC router/cutter.

I'm hand-making my bridges. I'm getting a bandsaw. I'm getting a belt sander. I'm getting a bigger CNC machine.

I'm doing French polish. I'm doing lacquer. I'm doing catalyzed polymers. I'm doing UV cures.

I'm hand-making peones. I'm hand-cutting kerfed lining. I'm using production kerfed lining.

I'm cutting and inlaying purfling. I'm using purfling strips and cracking them in. I'm using Abalam. I'm going to Ryan's purfling.

That's very funny, and very often true.