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  #16  
Old 12-24-2019, 11:36 AM
PANDAPANDELO PANDAPANDELO is offline
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Truth is... I have never worried about preamps. I just tough about what Tonedexter does with the sound, and what Felix/Alix could do with the EQing. So, I was thinking about have me a TD and use my Empress ParaEQ for EQing purposes.

But since now I'm aware that the Felix/Alix have a great preamp (that I wasn't worried about, because I don't know anything about this subject), I don't know if it would be better a better preamp+eq (Felix/Alix), or the Tonedexter+Empress. I guess a Touchmix don't have a great preamp. :/

And that's quite sad, because I can't test them where I'm at. I will have to make a decision and pray for the best. Hahahahahahaha

But, once again, THANK YOU for the feedback. They help a lot!

And sorry for my rusty english.
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  #17  
Old 12-24-2019, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post


The waveforms I've built with solid studio condenser mics has already replaced a lot of tweaking I'd be able to do with a more elaborate preamp attempting to find that elusive 'authentic' sound my acoustic guitars had when played 'naked'.

This is the key that I think some people miss when talking about TD and EQ. TD actually has massive EQ, the ability to make far more complex tone adjustments than traditional preamps - it's just that you don't do it by twisting knobs, you do it automatically via the training process. It creates an "EQ curve" that you couldn't replicate with any device with just tone controls. This assumes that what you're trying to achieve with the EQ is to get a natural tone, of course, and supposes that the rest of your signal chain and the environment you play in is able to deal with a natural guitar tone, which isn't always the case, sadly.

Both TD and Alix/Felix are good devices, but totally different. The Grace preamps are basically their studio M101 preamps in a stage box. Totally clean, clear, uncolored. They will make whatever sound your pickup produces come thru clear and unmodified. Of course, there's also good EQ. TD does not pass your pickup onto the next stage "uncolored", it changes it to sound more like your acoustic guitar. Both approaches are useful, it's a matter of what you need. You could also use both - just put TD in the effects loop of Alix/Felix, or add an EQ in TD's effects loop. Personally, I think something's probably wrong if you need a lot more EQ, and best addressed in other ways, but that's just my experience.
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  #18  
Old 12-24-2019, 03:30 PM
PANDAPANDELO PANDAPANDELO is offline
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Thank you for the reply, Doug!

I love the sound of my Martin unplugged (even plugged in, with the HFN Passive going trough a LR Baggs Session DI... that saturation and compress eq are terrific). So, I guess the TD would make it even better, sounding more like my acoustic.

Since I only play solo gigs (vocals and acoustic guitar), I think I will be fine with the TD. IF I need any eqing (and it seems I won't), I can do it on the mixer or the Empress ParaEQ. The rest would be up to the TD and the training process.

I have a Neumann KMS105 and a AT2035 for training... and I guess the Neumann would be a better bet, since it have a more flat frequency response.

Once again: thank you all for the feedbacks! It's been amazingly clarifying!
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  #19  
Old 12-24-2019, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PANDAPANDELO View Post
Thank you for the reply, Doug!

I love the sound of my Martin unplugged (even plugged in, with the HFN Passive going trough a LR Baggs Session DI... that saturation and compress eq are terrific). So, I guess the TD would make it even better, sounding more like my acoustic.
If you like the Session, then you are already not going the route of perfectly clean and uncolored, which is what Felix/Alix gives you. I suspect you'd like the ToneDexter, even tho it's also nothing like the Session.
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  #20  
Old 12-24-2019, 04:23 PM
PANDAPANDELO PANDAPANDELO is offline
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Hahahahah! You got me!

I'll probably retire the Session DI when I got me the TD. Do you think that the Neumann KMS105 can be a good mic to train with TD?

It's a handheld condenser mic, but I've seen its basically a KM184 for vocals (and the frequency response seems to be almost the same between the two).
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  #21  
Old 12-24-2019, 04:34 PM
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I think any mic can be used. Just like using mics for recording, the sound will be different with different mics, but they all make your guitar sound more like the mic than the pickup. Start with what you have, and see how it works, then go from there (if you need to).
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  #22  
Old 12-24-2019, 04:35 PM
PANDAPANDELO PANDAPANDELO is offline
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Thank you very much, Doug!
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2005 Martin HD28 with K&K Trinity;
2012 Cordoba C10;
Grace Design Felix 2;
Sennheiser MD441;
DPA 4099 Core;
DPA 4018L;
Bose L1 Compact;
QSC Touchmix 8;
QSC K10.2;
Neumann u87ai;
Neumann KMS105;
Neumann KM184 (matched pair).

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http://www.rodrigopandelo.com
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  #23  
Old 12-24-2019, 05:10 PM
gfirob gfirob is offline
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I would add that sometimes there is a divide in Tonedexter users between those who play solo or as an acoustic duo, and those who play with a band. I loaned my Tonedexter to a friend who was very excited about the device when playing it alone with me in a room, but when he used it with his group (electric base, another guitar and drums), he was less satisfied with it and I think I have heard this from others on this forum (this may be true of my fellow Vermonter).

As I recall, when I was first considering purchasing it and I talked to James May on the phone (an amazingly available guy) he tried to explain what the Tonedexter did by saying "Imagine an equalizer with 2,000 channels..." and this makes sense to me and also (as Doug Young suggests) shows how the Tonedexter is different from even very powerful EQ devices.
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  #24  
Old 12-24-2019, 05:20 PM
PANDAPANDELO PANDAPANDELO is offline
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Hmmm... I got what you mean, gfirob!

I just use my acoustic solo... just me, my vocals and acoustic guitar. So, I think that for me, the TD would be great. If I need to "cut" trough the mix, I could use "just" the pickup with the blend knob, or switch to a LR Baggs M80 Pickup, that I always carry with me.

Thank you for the advice!
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2005 Martin HD28 with K&K Trinity;
2012 Cordoba C10;
Grace Design Felix 2;
Sennheiser MD441;
DPA 4099 Core;
DPA 4018L;
Bose L1 Compact;
QSC Touchmix 8;
QSC K10.2;
Neumann u87ai;
Neumann KMS105;
Neumann KM184 (matched pair).

http://www.youtube.com/rodrigopandelo
http://www.rodrigopandelo.com
http://www.instagram.com/rodrigopandelo

São Paulo/Brazil
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  #25  
Old 12-24-2019, 06:51 PM
guitarman68 guitarman68 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PANDAPANDELO View Post

If more people with experience with TD and Felix could talk about their opinions, that would be great!

Have anyone used TD/Felix with HFN Passive Pickup?

Yes I did and still do:
Again ! No need to combine Schatten with a TD !
LJs post is unbelievable knowledgable, detailed and focussed - he really nailed it !
But: He is talking about K&K in combination with TD. Yes, I really love what the TD does with my K&K equipped instruments. I never thought this would be possible until I bought a TD this summer.
Using Schatten HFN or a Dazzo with TD is a whole different story. Yes, the results are fine, but not as spectacular as TD/K&K because the TD can not do that amount of magic on these PUs. Why ? Because these PUs sound too natural to let the TD do the work he is built for.

Back to your point:
You wrote you want some extra pedal for notching just in case. Puh, the TD is a pretty expensive tool just for that application.

And:
Touchmix preamps are fine IMHO. And their quality have very low to no influence on the subject here.

If feedback is an issue with your Schatten HFN / Martin HD 28 you should keep in mind, that the very natural sounding Schatten HFN can get lost in a busy mix or loud environment. Due to its nice sound it lacks some "cutting through" power.
That is why I use my OM18 / Schatten guitar in quiet and solo gigging settings.
So before paying some extra money I would experiment with stage volume, monitor placement, using the HPF on your K10.2 speakers or on your board.
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  #26  
Old 12-24-2019, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarman68 View Post
Yes, the results are fine, but not as spectacular as TD/K&K because the TD can not do that amount of magic on these PUs.
I have not tried the Schatten with TD, but this is consistent with my experience with the Dazzo. I had a lot of trouble getting TD to do anything positive with the Dazzo at first. I now have wavemap for my Dazzo/Martin that works, but the difference is so subtle, it doesn't matter much. Not even sure it's an improvement, just different.

At the same time, check out the OP's demo of how his Schatten sounds in this recent thread:

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=566997

That's not how I'd expect the Schatten to sound, so TD might be able to help (or alternately, there may be something more basic that needs to be fixed).
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  #27  
Old 12-24-2019, 10:58 PM
PANDAPANDELO PANDAPANDELO is offline
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I have re-installed the HFN with putty, and the problem was solved. I will test it again, in a live performance, next sunday, 29. I'll let you guys know if it have improved. Checking the difference with my in ear, the thin sound is gone, and everything is sounding WAY more natural. I guess I have improved the sound a lot, now.

And I guess that feedback is not a problem... at all. I'm just too worried about it. Almost paranoid. It will get better with the time and experience on my sound checks.
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Rodrigo Pandeló

2005 Martin HD28 with K&K Trinity;
2012 Cordoba C10;
Grace Design Felix 2;
Sennheiser MD441;
DPA 4099 Core;
DPA 4018L;
Bose L1 Compact;
QSC Touchmix 8;
QSC K10.2;
Neumann u87ai;
Neumann KMS105;
Neumann KM184 (matched pair).

http://www.youtube.com/rodrigopandelo
http://www.rodrigopandelo.com
http://www.instagram.com/rodrigopandelo

São Paulo/Brazil
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  #28  
Old 12-25-2019, 07:36 AM
varmonter varmonter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gfirob View Post
I would add that sometimes there is a divide in Tonedexter users between those who play solo or as an acoustic duo, and those who play with a band. I loaned my Tonedexter to a friend who was very excited about the device when playing it alone with me in a room, but when he used it with his group (electric base, another guitar and drums), he was less satisfied with it and I think I have heard this from others on this forum (this may be true of my fellow Vermonter).

As I recall, when I was first considering purchasing it and I talked to James May on the phone (an amazingly available guy) he tried to explain what the Tonedexter did by saying "Imagine an equalizer with 2,000 channels..." and this makes sense to me and also (as Doug Young suggests) shows how the Tonedexter is different from even very powerful EQ devices.
This is certainly my reasons for selling the TD. i think for me i needed a two ch tonedexter. or 2 tonedexters. as in a live
performance i needed (in the band)the ability to.switch from guitar to mandolin to bass. as i found the mandolin and bass have very similar eq settings ( i know sounds unlikely but try it) I can get away with the felix. Now i use the helix stomp.
I find great tone in this little box and presets are stored for each instrument.
Like the tonedexter i can use Impulse responses in my signal chain for anything from a vintage gibson f5 mandolin to a 14th century upright bass. (Or a tele through a twin reverb...
this thing (the hx stomp ) has opened things up creativly for me.
Lately ive tried useing the felix as a mixer. running my vocal mic into the mic pre on ch 1 and the helix into ch 2. preliminary results with this setup are proving quite promising...

Last edited by varmonter; 12-25-2019 at 07:50 AM.
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  #29  
Old 12-25-2019, 07:36 AM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
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Default PC MAC Matlab Octave IR Generation for Acoustic Guitar

I am currently using a Cuki79 IR (minimum phase version) with my HFN. I think the HFN sounds fine without the IR, but with the IR I get a fuller slightly more pleasant tone. In my duo it is probably only noticeable to me.

I found using an IR in a "louder not solo application" facilitated by direct control of the lower resonances in the 80-250 Hz range, which I am doing with two parametric EQ notches.

It's been 39 years since my MSEE, and I just finished a text book on signal processing along with a tutorial on Matlab (a math software development environment). I've got some ideas on how to turn IR generation for acoustic guitar into a relatively turn-key operation with a PC or MAC, and Matlab (or the free GNU version Octave). I might have some results in a few months... I am hoping this post gets crawled by Google and I get someone in the IR business to look over my plan. If I get something working, I'll post the code to share.

Since I don't have Audio Sprockets experience in what looks like a usable result, I am attempting to brute force that problem.
  1. Very large segments and optimal window function to minimize segmentation and frequency domain quantization effects.
  2. Preprocessing the pickup and mic FFT outputs for divide-by-near-zero problems.
  3. Support for IR loaders without low/high cut and/or parametric EQ.

A plan...

• Mic and guitar sample
o determine sample size (16 or 24 bit)
o determine sample rate
• Segment sample into 2 second intervals
• Skip 6 seconds into sample
o scan mic and pickup segments for max >= (2^(sample size - 1) - 1)
o skip to next segment if clipping detected
o skip 5 segments, repeat and identify 10 segments of mic and guitar with no clipping
• Dolph-Chebyshev window each chosen segment (might use simpler window as per Cuki)
• FFT all 10 segment pairs
• Scan pickup segment FFT coefficient magnitudes for 60 dB down or more from peak
o replace those coefficients and corresponding mic coefficients with 1 (0 dB).
• Coefficient by Coefficient divide mic FFT by corresponding pickup FFT
• Accumulate quotients
• Scale accumulated quotient by 1/10
• Create minimum phase version
• Option: set quotient coefficients to 1 below 100 and above 10 kHz
• Inverse FFT
• Normalize results to some reasonable gain compatible with 16 bit samples
• Discard leading near zeros (80 dB down), truncate to 2048 points.
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.wav file, 30 seconds, pickup left, mic right, open position strumming best...send to direct email below
I'll send you 100/0, 75/25, 50/50 & 0/100 IR/Bypass IRs
IR Demo, read the description too: https://youtu.be/SELEE4yugjE
My duo's website and my email... [email protected]

Jon Fields

Last edited by jonfields45; 12-25-2019 at 08:19 AM.
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  #30  
Old 12-25-2019, 10:15 AM
varmonter varmonter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonfields45 View Post
I am currently using a Cuki79 IR (minimum phase version) with my HFN. I think the HFN sounds fine without the IR, but with the IR I get a fuller slightly more pleasant tone. In my duo it is probably only noticeable to me.

I found using an IR in a "louder not solo application" facilitated by direct control of the lower resonances in the 80-250 Hz range, which I am doing with two parametric EQ notches.

It's been 39 years since my MSEE, and I just finished a text book on signal processing along with a tutorial on Matlab (a math software development environment). I've got some ideas on how to turn IR generation for acoustic guitar into a relatively turn-key operation with a PC or MAC, and Matlab (or the free GNU version Octave). I might have some results in a few months... I am hoping this post gets crawled by Google and I get someone in the IR business to look over my plan. If I get something working, I'll post the code to share.

Since I don't have Audio Sprockets experience in what looks like a usable result, I am attempting to brute force that problem.
  1. Very large segments and optimal window function to minimize segmentation and frequency domain quantization effects.
  2. Preprocessing the pickup and mic FFT outputs for divide-by-near-zero problems.
  3. Support for IR loaders without low/high cut and/or parametric EQ.

A plan...

• Mic and guitar sample
o determine sample size (16 or 24 bit)
o determine sample rate
• Segment sample into 2 second intervals
• Skip 6 seconds into sample
o scan mic and pickup segments for max >= (2^(sample size - 1) - 1)
o skip to next segment if clipping detected
o skip 5 segments, repeat and identify 10 segments of mic and guitar with no clipping
• Dolph-Chebyshev window each chosen segment (might use simpler window as per Cuki)
• FFT all 10 segment pairs
• Scan pickup segment FFT coefficient magnitudes for 60 dB down or more from peak
o replace those coefficients and corresponding mic coefficients with 1 (0 dB).
• Coefficient by Coefficient divide mic FFT by corresponding pickup FFT
• Accumulate quotients
• Scale accumulated quotient by 1/10
• Create minimum phase version
• Option: set quotient coefficients to 1 below 100 and above 10 kHz
• Inverse FFT
• Normalize results to some reasonable gain compatible with 16 bit samples
• Discard leading near zeros (80 dB down), truncate to 2048 points.
Thats impressive stuff.. only because i understand about 1/3 of it.... ha .. But it sounds like your working on a marketable technology.
And appears its ready or almost ready for presentation..
congrats and good luck in your venture..
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