Mixing.....the lightbulb moment

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Joe, nice playing. I don't know how much critique you're looking for, but I have couple of suggestions for your track.

The original track's levels are very low. If you're recording at 24 bits, it's not a deal breaker, but I'd try to get a little more level. Your peak amplitude is around -20db, and your average is around -37db. I'd shoot for -6 db or so peak.

There's something wonky going on with phase. Both your original and mastered tracks make my ears spin a bit :-), and analysis tools tell me you have the two tracks about 120 degrees out of phase, in a pattern I haven't actually seen before. How are you micing the guitar?

The mastered track has some obvious compression artifacts, and sounds kind of zingy, a tad metallic to my ears, tho this is all a matter of taste. It's aggravated by the phase issue.

The biggest issue is the phase problem in the original. Fix that, and you'll find that getting a good sound in the mastering/mixing stage gets way easier!

Doug,

Thanks for taking your time to do the math on this one. I can't really hear enough of the first one to make any valid comparisons.

Joe, nice playing and I like the tune, but why are you recording at such a low level? And yes there's some "surround" stuff going on which you may like, but it would be nice to hear a more direct sound.

It reminds me of people who get fascinated by the "stairwell effect." Similar to recording in the bathroom, stairwell recording is recording in a stairwell because of all of the hard parallel surfaces. This is usually considered a "beginners fascination" and over time, most look back and say, "what was I thinking?" We all have done it. It's part of experimenting with sound.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[joehempel]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

Doug,

Thanks for taking your time to do the math on this one. I can't really hear enough of the first one to make any valid comparisons.

Joe, nice playing and I like the tune, but why are you recording at such a low level? And yes there's some "surround" stuff going on which you may like, but it would be nice to hear a more direct sound.

It reminds me of people who get fascinated by the "stairwell effect." Similar to recording in the bathroom, stairwell recording is recording in a stairwell because of all of the hard parallel surfaces. This is usually considered a "beginners fascination" and over time, most look back and say, "what was I thinking?" We all have done it. It's part of experimenting with sound.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Thanks alot.

I don't really have a fascination with the while effect, I was trying to mimic tue original lol. I like the other a bit better....the last one I posted anyway.

As far as record levels, if I goes any higher I get a bunch of white noise. I was told that Ishould set my levels to just where noise starts to come in. I will put something up with raw rrecording with higher levels later today. Im in a dentist chair right now lol. This pst is keeping me sane

[Ty Ford]

If increased white noise happens when you record, you're not doing something correctly or your gear is deficient or broken.

I regularly record with peaks at -3dB. (higher if I want to) without any added noise.

Performing dental surgery on yourself while texting is not recommended.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Doug Young]

Joe, Fran Guidry and I spent some time last night off line trying to recreate your sound with his H2. He's got the hands on experience here, so maybe he can clarify, but it seems to me, based on what he tried, that you must have the mics set to use the rear set instead of the front. I'm also wondering how you have the unit pointed. The pictures in the manual appear to be misleading.

Good luck in the dentist chair, hope your on the giving end rather than the sharp end of the tools.

[joehempel]

Man....I REALLY appreciate all that you've done in helping me!! Words cannot express that!

I double checked all my settings on the H2, and it's a default settings, recording 2 channels, 90 degrees in the front.

I did boost the level with this, and I'm getting between -12 and -6db I believe....and to be honest...I don't know what I was hearing before, but I'm not so much hearing the room noise as much as I first thought. I'm getting between -15 at the low end and -6 at the top end.

here is the linke, nothing had been done to this file, I just converted it to MP3:
http://www.box.net/shared/rzgpnxcihb

Again, thanks everyone for taking so much time to help a noob!

[Doug Young]

Still something weird going on. Your levels are much better, and the phase is different, but still whacky. Here's what the stereo image looks like from Fran's front mics. A very typical XY pattern, narrow and an in phase



and here's yours. Sure looks like some sort of surround.



I'd double check your mic settings again, toggle thru them. But maybe something's broken?

[joehempel]

I went through the mic settings again, reset everything to factory.

I even kind of blew or talked into the back side, each mic and front side...when I turned it to the back side, the volume did get substantially lower, like the mic on the front end was picking it up...and when I went to the front side it was very very full. So I think the mics are working as they should.

I boosted the volume even further....and this is the result

http://www.box.net/shared/lch51l3o7n

Outside of all this I just don't know what I'm doing wrong. I seem to be doing everything right but still getting that out of phase thing.

The one thing that I DID notice, and it's default, is that the mic is set to player and not listener, I don't know if that would change anything one way or another.

[Doug Young]

Still the same. I can't imagine what the problem is. Defective unit? I don't know what the player vs listener thing is.

[joehempel]

I may just record a mono mix and ser what happens. I wouldn't think the unit is defective in this way....who knows

[joehempel]

Well I just did a full edit on a mono mix...I recorded in stereo, and then made it mono....then eq'd then took the mono back to a faux stereo type thing.

I think it's the best yet, it's just too bad I can't figure out what the heck is going on with the H2 to make it out of phase. I'll send an email to support

With the advice on recording levels etc, I didn't even use a lot of compression, and it seems to work better that way.

Thanks to everyone for their help...the information has been invaluable!!!

http://www.box.net/shared/bmgqu0on47

[Doug Young]

I think this sounds quite a bit better, tho if you can figure out your phase issues, it'll be even better. Converting a phasey stereo track to mono is exactly when you get cancellation effects.

[joehempel]

Thanks.

I'll continue to work on what could be the problem, I sent an email to Zoom to see if they have any thoughts.

But until then I'll continue to work with hit out of phase. It doesn't bother most people that listen, but getting a good mix is important to me, so it needs to be fixed.

[joehempel]

Just thought of something here:

If I'm converting a phasey stereo like mine to mono, I should be getting cancellation effects right? But I'm not. So...I'm kind of confused.

[D. Churchland]

Having not read any comments other than the OP's post, this is my take on it.

The playing is fine, you have good technique

I honestly prefer the original recording rather than the mastered one. The volume level on the original could be a bit hotter, but it has much more dynamics and a much more pleasant tone to it, although there's something odd going on with your microhpones, how close together were they when you recorded? Sounds like there might be some phase cancellation going on.

Also, the compression seems a bit overdone to my ears, remember that basically what compression does is it makes your recordings a consistent volume and dynamics level. Basically it makes your high db points quieter and your quiet db points louder, equalizing it in a way. There's a bit more to it than that. But it seems like either your effects are causing alot of background hiss, or the compression is causing it as well, it might be both.

Were you running the effects post or pre in your mix? If you're running them as a pre sometimes it can cause extra noise and hiss.

Also, it seems like the mastered recording is a tad thin sounding, and my ears keep hearing a spike in the eq around 6k hz, I don't have a spectrum analyzer so I could just be hearing things or some by-product of the compression.

Also, where were your microphones positioned in front of the guitar for the recording? It sounds like you were going for an X Y pattern but I keep hearing this weird sort of "washy" sound in the recording apart from the effects. Might be phase cancellation like I mentioned before if your mics were too close together

[joehempel]

Originally Posted by Will Kirk

Having not read any comments other than the OP's post, this is my take on it.

The playing is fine, you have good technique

I honestly prefer the original recording rather than the mastered one. The volume level on the original could be a bit hotter, but it has much more dynamics and a much more pleasant tone to it, although there's something odd going on with your microhpones, how close together were they when you recorded? Sounds like there might be some phase cancellation going on.

Also, the compression seems a bit overdone to my ears, remember that basically what compression does is it makes your recordings a consistent volume and dynamics level. Basically it makes your high db points quieter and your quiet db points louder, equalizing it in a way. There's a bit more to it than that. But it seems like either your effects are causing alot of background hiss, or the compression is causing it as well, it might be both.

Were you running the effects post or pre in your mix? If you're running them as a pre sometimes it can cause extra noise and hiss.

Also, it seems like the mastered recording is a tad thin sounding, and my ears keep hearing a spike in the eq around 6k hz, I don't have a spectrum analyzer so I could just be hearing things or some by-product of the compression.

Also, where were your microphones positioned in front of the guitar for the recording? It sounds like you were going for an X Y pattern but I keep hearing this weird sort of "washy" sound in the recording apart from the effects. Might be phase cancellation like I mentioned before if your mics were too close together

Ah, well, then you kind of missed the answers to most of your questions LOL.

I'm using a Zoom H2, therefore I CANNOT adjust how the mics are oriented, it's an X/Y pattern at 90deg, it's sitting about 12" from the 12th fret.

All effects were done in post. In the original recording there is zero compression. The background hiss is just coming from the room, and the low level I recorded at, see future posts for recordings at a hotter level.

As far as phase cancellation, the ENTIRE THREAD has been about phase cancellation so I won't go into that again LOL. I'm wondering if the fact that in the original recording the left channel is about 6db lower than the right causes that, because of the way they are oriented.

This is how the front of the H2 looks:





Hopefully this helps some.