Yes or no? LDC AT-2035 paired with Sterling ST-170 active ribbon mic demo

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

Fair points Doug - I have recently been playing with both levels to match L & R channels (I still record twin mono tracks) and also phase alignment.

I found the phase alignment unhelpful in some cases when applied to a spaced pair - I guess because the nature of a spaced pair sound is out of phase by design.

It is challenging achieving a decent L / R balance due to the different nature of the recorded sound from each mic in a spaced pair, which influences what appears to be louder - hence I like some guidance from the data too.

Phase differences are part of what creates the stereo effect with spaced pairs, so you don't want to undo that, for sure.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Phase differences are part of what creates the stereo effect with spaced pairs, so you don't want to undo that, for sure.

Most often on how to record sites you're usually advised, from pros or otherwise, that when spaced pair mic'ing you should keep the mikes the same distance from the guitar to avoid phase issues (comb filtering mainly).

Not that I agree with this especially but for the sake of argument pretend that it's iron clad true. Say your mikes are a few inches off from equal distance. A fraction of a millisecond delay on one side of a stereo track could bring things back to equal mike distance phase alignment. Sometimes pretty audible with headphones, maybe not so much with speakers where there are room reflections and often one is not consistently sitting in the sweet spot between the speakers.

Some of the best sounding solo guitar tracks I have heard have wildly low phase coherence. Some other guitar recordings sound excellent with a high coherence.

Something to experiment with on occasion, especially when using reverbs.

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Most often on how to record sites you're usually advised, from pros or otherwise, that when spaced pair mic'ing you should keep the mikes the same distance from the guitar to avoid phase issues (comb filtering mainly).

Not that I agree with this especially but for the sake of argument pretend that it's iron clad true. Say your mikes are a few inches off from equal distance. A fraction of a millisecond delay on one side of a stereo track could bring things back to equal mike distance phase alignment. Sometimes pretty audible with headphones, maybe not so much with speakers where there are room reflections and often one is not consistently sitting in the sweet spot between the speakers.

Some of the best sounding solo guitar tracks I have heard have wildly low phase coherence. Some other guitar recordings sound excellent with a high coherence.

Something to experiment with on occasion, especially when using reverbs.

Just to explore this further - I think my mics are often a little off from each other as I tweak them to get the sound I want while sitting. In this case would you be looking at waveforms and trying to align the peaks - or would this have the negative effect of removing phase differences and spoiling the sound? Or is it just a case of paying with both options.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

Just to explore this further - I think my mics are often a little off from each other as I tweak them to get the sound I want while sitting. In this case would you be looking at waveforms and trying to align the peaks - or would this have the negative effect of removing phase differences and spoiling the sound? Or is it just a case of paying with both options.

If it sounds good, it is good :-) I'd suggest getting your mic placement right to start with rather than trying to shift tracks. Rick sometimes likes to add some delay to one side - you can try that and hear the tonal differences as you change the delay, maybe you'll hear something you like. I'd tend to just do it over with mics moved, if I didn't like the sound, but whatever works!

For me, I record with balance and phase meters in front of me, as I'm doing a last sound check. For spaced pairs, I try to set up the mics so they're the same distance from the guitar, more or less. It's a balancing act.

By the way, if you really get both sides perfectly in phase and the waveform matching exactly, (which would include EQ balance), you'd have mono! Stereo's inherently different in each channel.

Phase isn't a bad thing, per se, it's a fact of nature. It's one of the cues our ears use to understand location, distance, etc. You might think of it like perspective in drawing. It's part of what makes a drawing look 3D, unless you mess it up somehow, in which case, you notice something's wrong (unless you intend to make it look wrong, in which case it's part of the art...)

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

If it sounds good, it is good :-) I'd suggest getting your mic placement right to start with rather than trying to shift tracks. Rick sometimes likes to add some delay to one side - you can try that and hear the tonal differences as you change the delay, maybe you'll hear something you like. I'd tend to just do it over with mics moved, if I didn't like the sound, but whatever works!



For me, I record with balance and phase meters in front of me, as I'm doing a last sound check. For spaced pairs, I try to set up the mics so they're the same distance from the guitar, more or less. It's a balancing act.



By the way, if you really get both sides perfectly in phase and the waveform matching exactly, (which would include EQ balance), you'd have mono! Stereo's inherently different in each channel.



Phase isn't a bad thing, per se, it's a fact of nature. It's one of the cues our ears use to understand location, distance, etc. You might think of it like perspective in drawing. It's part of what makes a drawing look 3D, unless you mess it up somehow, in which case, you notice something's wrong (unless you intend to make it look wrong, in which case it's part of the art...)

Thanks Doug.

Because my screen and interface sit behind me I tend not to have any visuals when recording - not ideal, but my panels and position within the room dictate my desk being behind me.

I think I just need to make sure the mics are as equidistant as I can get them (why I like the idea of one stereo bar as opposed to two stands - but have not found one over 30cm in length..)

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

Just to explore this further - I think my mics are often a little off from each other as I tweak them to get the sound I want while sitting. In this case would you be looking at waveforms and trying to align the peaks - or would this have the negative effect of removing phase differences and spoiling the sound? Or is it just a case of paying with both options.

Keep in mind I listen and adjust things with headphones. With speakers much of the possible sound changes in tiny delay adjustments would be lost in the noise of room reflections and sitting position and head movements.

When experimenting with delay I don't look at waveforms. It's all by ear. If I do use delay it's a quite small amount (in the range of 0.05 to 0.3 milliseconds). Generally not enough to kick in a noticeable Haas Effect (if that did occur with an amount of delay I like a lot a small amount of R or L volume adjustment can counter).

For example yesterday I experimented with one of Anton's recordings recently linked to on the forum. A tiny tweak changed what stood out in the balance of higher versus lower pitched notes.

Obviously try to get a good sound in the raw recording. I will sometimes experiment with a number of mike placements. However say you have done that to get a good recording both soundwise and performance wise. You really can't be sure what you will end up with with a little equalization, volume tweaks, and how the recording will react to different reverbs. A bit of delay could be a plus or a minus. Experiment. It just takes a few minutes at most.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

Thanks Doug.

Because my screen and interface sit behind me I tend not to have any visuals when recording - not ideal, but my panels and position within the room dictate my desk being behind me.

I think I just need to make sure the mics are as equidistant as I can get them (why I like the idea of one stereo bar as opposed to two stands - but have not found one over 30cm in length..)

I have a 2nd monitor setup where I can see it from my mic location. I'm on a Mac, so I could also use AirDisplay to an ipad. But really, you don't have to go crazy with any of this. When I shoot videos, like the one with the Ear Trumpet mic last week, I don't even do a sound check. Put the mic roughly in front of the guitar, make sure it looks right on the video (the important part :-) ), look at the (small) meters on the Zoom I use for video to see if it's roughly balanced between channels, and it's done. If I need to make small tweaks in the mix, I do whatever is needed.

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I have a 2nd monitor setup where I can see it from my mic location. I'm on a Mac, so I could also use AirDisplay to an ipad. But really, you don't have to go crazy with any of this. When I shoot videos, like the one with the Ear Trumpet mic last week, I don't even do a sound check. Put the mic roughly in front of the guitar, make sure it looks right on the video (the important part :-) ), look at the (small) meters on the Zoom I use for video to see if it's roughly balanced between channels, and it's done. If I need to make small tweaks in the mix, I do whatever is needed.

Air display.... now there’s an idea!