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Old 03-23-2020, 09:05 PM
nolegsfngrpickn nolegsfngrpickn is offline
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Default Fingerstyle players who switched from steel to nylon

So of course, after I commissioned my first luthier build I started getting enamored with Flamenco. My first guitar teacher many years ago was an amazing Flamenco player, and of course I didn't appreciate it until much later. I really respect the right hand technique and find it nothing short of amazing.

I did some searching on the forums and the last time this was discussed was in 2010, but it made me wonder, how many of you fingerstyle players switched from steel string to nylon? Non-Flamenco/Classical players like Chet Atkins, Richard Smith, Lindsey Buckingham (sometimes), etc, etc prefer/appreciate nylon, and it made me think: should I make the transition?

I do want to begin my journey with Flamenco, and a nylon would give me the ability to play that, classical, fingerstyle, rock, everything really. But you can't really say the opposite for steel string guitars. I know most might say just have one of each, and I get that. I'm mostly referring to your main preference. The instrument you gravitate to and pick up 99% of the time when you go to play.
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Old 03-23-2020, 09:24 PM
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Bear Davis Bear Davis is offline
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While I am sure there are some flamenco players lurking around the forum I don't think you will find an abundance of AGF'ers that gave up steel string for nylon. You will however find a bunch of people that have both and should be able to get some great advice on what to look for.
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Old 03-23-2020, 09:54 PM
Martin_F Martin_F is offline
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It's not too hard to play between the two, steel-string and nylon. The feel of the different styles of guitars is very different though. I was an electric metal guitarist and I switched to classical and basically quit playing all other styles. Recently I have been getting back into steel-string acoustic with some country blues and some fingerpicking stuff.

The big differences are, of course, that a regular-sized flamenco or nylon string guitar of most sorts will have a 52mm(2.05") nut, which is quite a bit bigger than a regular acoustic steel-string. The scale length is also a little longer, with 650mm(roughly 25.6") being the standard. A couple of my classical guitars are 658mm scale, which is quite a bit longer in feeling. You can get some crossover guitars with narrower nuts, closer to a steel-string, but in the classical/flamenco world these are not thought of as viable guitars to really play in that style.

I can tell you that to become proficient at flamenco or classical guitar takes quite a bit of work, along with some study to read the music (if you don't already). The techniques used in flamenco can be difficult, as the motions are exactly natural in all circumstances. Plus, you have to grow your nails out and keep them perfectly shaped and smooth to ensure that you get a nice tone from the strings.

All that being said, nylon string guitars can sound very beautiful. I'm sure if you do go down that route, you will find you love it. It just takes work and dedication.

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Old 03-24-2020, 03:13 AM
Michael Watts Michael Watts is offline
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Good question! I started on classical guitar but found my voice as a steel string player. I do enjoy playing nylon but hadn't considered doing it seriously again until I spent a few hours with these two guitars. I'm playing a Matsuda nylon classical and the guitar on the stand is a flamenco by Casimi guitars.



That said I've been more steel/flatwound archtop of late so anything could happen.

I know that Willy Porter recently has a Kostal MDW nylon string, you can find out more about that here

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Old 03-24-2020, 06:15 AM
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I started learning classical at the beginning of this year. I will still play my steel strings, more so when the RH is back to normal and they are out of their cases. Nylon has a great sound and once in a while I actually hear it from mine,
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:19 AM
Bikewer Bikewer is offline
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I play chord-melody stuff Fingerstyle, and I’ve found that the nylon-string is well-suited to this type of playing.
Near impossible to keep my nails functioning on a steel-string....

When I want to play steel... I flatpick.
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Old 03-24-2020, 10:47 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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I didn't "switch", I always played both. That is, I started on steel-string (a terrible cheap one), taught myself fingerstyle on that, then got myself a nylon-string a few years later. That was 50 years ago...

I still play both kinds. I have two steel-string acoustics - Guild F30, Yamaha LL11 - and two nylon-string - Aria CET60 electro-acoustic and my first 50-year-old Japanese cheapo (from the days before Japan made good guitars...). Actually it's not that bad, I use it for lessons, but most of the time I practice on the Aria; it's small and neat, easy to grab from where I sit.
I've been meaning to treat myself to a proper top quality classical guitar, I just have to get round to trying a few out. Recommendations welcome!

I don't play flamenco though. Proper flamenco guitars are a little different from classical - they tend to have thinner tops, and a brighter sound.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:57 AM
nolegsfngrpickn nolegsfngrpickn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin_F View Post
I can tell you that to become proficient at flamenco or classical guitar takes quite a bit of work, along with some study to read the music (if you don't already). The techniques used in flamenco can be difficult, as the motions are exactly natural in all circumstances. Plus, you have to grow your nails out and keep them perfectly shaped and smooth to ensure that you get a nice tone from the strings.
Understood. The dedication won't be an issue, and I'm ready for that next step with my right hand technique. The only thing I'm wondering about are fingernails. Are there any Flamenco players who use flesh? I'm a flesh fingerstyle player, have never used nails or a thumbpick. Or is that just not a thing?
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Old 03-24-2020, 02:52 PM
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I play both and use just flesh/callouses. I gave up nails a long time ago.

I recommend you just do what works/appeals to you and don't worry about it.

I found out that for me, having nylon, steel string, and electric is the way to go.

Your path is yours.
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Old 03-24-2020, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nolegsfngrpickn View Post
I'm a flesh fingerstyle player, have never used nails or a thumbpick. Or is that just not a thing?
I don't now about flamenco, but when I first started in January I tried the no-nail approach and it doesn't sound that great, at least on slow moving pieces. The nail brings out better tone. You don't need long nails at all either, just a little bit.
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Old 03-25-2020, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nolegsfngrpickn View Post
…Non-Flamenco/Classical players like Chet Atkins, Richard Smith, Lindsey Buckingham (sometimes), etc, etc prefer/appreciate nylon, and it made me think: should I make the transition?
Hi nlfp

Buster B Jones. He majored in nylon…so did Jerry Reed.

As for Chet, he did both steel and nylon…

As for transitioning, do you feel one can only play on one style of string? I play acoustic, classical, and electric guitars and don't have issues switching back and forth. I think human-kind is pretty versatile.



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Old 03-25-2020, 10:04 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nolegsfngrpickn View Post
Understood. The dedication won't be an issue, and I'm ready for that next step with my right hand technique. The only thing I'm wondering about are fingernails. Are there any Flamenco players who use flesh? I'm a flesh fingerstyle player, have never used nails or a thumbpick. Or is that just not a thing?
If you can grow good nails, it gives a better sound. Certainly for flamenco, which often needs to be bright and loud, with a clear attack for fast passages.
Like TBMan says, the nails don't need to be long. Just 1-2mm beyond the flesh of the fingertip is plenty. The fingertip touches the string first and the nail picks it. (You can find plenty of tips online on nail care - and length and shape - for classical guitar.)

It's more of an issue with the thumbnail if you play in a more folk or blues style, wrist close to the guitar (or even resting on it). That's why some use a thumbpick, picking from the side of the thumb rather than the nail.
Personally I can still pick with my thumbnail from that angle, but it needs to be a little longer than the others. I have good strong nails though.
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Old 03-25-2020, 02:47 PM
JonnyBGood JonnyBGood is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nolegsfngrpickn View Post
Are there any Flamenco players who use flesh?
No. You simply will not get the sound, which needs to be crisp, bright and articulate.

The vast majority of pro classical players also play with nails. Sure there are some exceptions, but not many, and these players often specialise in reproducing certain 19th century repertoire (often playing period replica instruments, which is an important realisation when people point to great players/composers of that period who played without nails, like Sor. The modern classical guitar is quite different and there was no nylon then).

Take a browse though all the major classical guitar method books published in the last hundred years, 99% teach a nail based technique, there is good reason for that.
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Old 03-27-2020, 04:32 PM
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I switched to nylon from steel but not exclusively. Some things are better done on a steel string so I keep both. I bashed a classical guitar into a steel string (did all the structural mods) and keep 10s on it at 1/2 step down. The tension is greater than nylon, of course, but I beefed up the structure for it. Wonderful sound. A bit of work but I prefer the wide board on a 12 fret guitar to any other board. Now I can sell the 14 fret steel string I have and get another classical to replace the modified one. The idea is to get both guitars with near identical dimensions and playability as I can for the rest of my days.
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Old 03-28-2020, 04:03 PM
NormanKliman NormanKliman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nolegsfngrpickn View Post
...nylon would give me the ability to play that, classical, fingerstyle, rock, everything really.
I switched about 30 years ago and haven’t looked back. I play a few different styles on a flamenco guitar and have put a lot of effort into dealing with the challenges of playing ragtime, blues, etc. on nylon. You end up adapting everything to the instrument, and a lot of it works, but your technique changes if you commit to it.

Your thumb stays centered on the neck behind the fretting fingers, like a pair of pliers. It’s different in ragtime, blues, etc., where you sometimes even fret with your thumb, and it’s surprising how much of that can be done with your thumb behind the neck. There’s a lot to be said about that, so I’ll leave it for another day.

The other big change in techique is due to neck width, as others have mentioned upthread. Once you get used to the wider neck, narrower ones are too small to play, especially if you’ve got big hands. This also means that some chords that are doable on an acoustic are a lot more difficult on a bigger neck.
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