Removed top finish. Thinning the top or not?

[Wade Hampton]

John Arnold already posted what I would have written, only he said it more succinctly and accurately than I would have:

Originally Posted by John Arnold

Think in terms of stiffness, rather than mass. Reducing the thickness lowers the stiffness more quickly than mass, so you can end up with a flabby guitar that is likely to have excess belly. It may be louder, but tone quality and sustain will probably suffer. The more you head in this direction, the more it will sound like a banjo.

Short version: leave the rest of the guitar alone at this point, and let your repair tech do the refinishing of the top for you.

Hope this helps.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Eso612]

Thank you so much for all your support.
I will go on with bridge re-glue without any further work.
I was confused but now it's all clear. Thanks again.
I'll let you know if it has improved or not.

[JonWint]

Don't add weight or cost with a fancy finish, just wipe a couple coats of sealer shellac (1 lb/gallon cut) and call it a day.

The best in a superlegerra finish. Add lightness...……...

[Lesbark Wagmore]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

The more you head in this direction, the more it will sound like a banjo.

This is good advice for most areas of life.

[Eso612]

Update
First of all thank you once again for the advice of not thinning the top. It would be a mistake for sure.
1) When we removed the bridge we discovered that it was glued very very bad by RK. On those cheap guitar, quality control is the main issue and this is no exception. There was poor contact between the top and the bridge. So I think bad transmission of sound. I think reglueing it was at least 40% of the improvement.
2) We put only 4 layers of satin nitro finish. A very thin finish but much more protection for the wood than I could imagine. And very good looking to me.
3) We have done new bone nut and saddle and a good set up.

The result? Astonishing!
Now I feel the top really moving when I play. Volume is at least twice than was before, dynamic has increased a lot. Trebles really sings and it is still very well balanced. I was worried about the balance but there is nothing wrong at all. I am sooooo happy with this guitar.
Is it as good as any highly priced guitar? NO! My Santa Cruz FS in of another league, with a more "mature" and sophisticated sound. But this baby is a pure pleasure to play. And it is very versatile. When I play I am lost in the music and I don't miss anything from the guitar. This will stay with me forever.

Warning: I am not saying that this can be done on every guitar to improve it. This was a good work to do on this one, because even if it was fine, I felt it was not playing like it could. And the top finish was very very thick. But you don't see that very often. Please don't think that remove finishing is good for every guitar!!!
I own 10 guitars and I don't think this is good for any other of them!!!

[Dbone]

Not something I would do, but good luck.

Sounds a lot like trying to make it something that it is not.

[rampix]

I’m happy that all worked out for you Eso. Enjoy your improved RK!

[rstaight]

The theory is sound, no pun intended. Thinner top and braces will provide potentially more vibration and potentially more volume.

However, if it's not strong to handle the string tension and added pressures of playing, it just may come apart.

I would leave it alone and trust my luthier. Have it refinished with a thinner finish. I would even consider a french polish.

Good luck with your project.

[Wade Hampton]

The OP already stated that they put four thin coats of satin nitrocellulose lacquer on the top, and they’re not going to apply any more - they’re done. Did you just read the first few posts in the thread and react to those without checking the OP’s update post before you responded?


whm

[ManyMartinMan]

Although Charles T. has responded here (and I would defer to what he says about building), I would move this to the build & repair area to hear from more luthiers if you still need convincing. Other than the common wisdom of "don't monkey with the monkey" I would proceed slowly and cautiously.

[DenverSteve]

Originally Posted by Eso612

...So I removed the bridge. Since the bridge was too heavy we removed wood mass from the bridge itself to let the trebles ring a little more (they were softer than the basses)...

How did you remove mass from the bridge? If you remove height you will change your string height at the bridge unless you re-slot and put in a taller saddle. If you remove length or width, you will likely have an unfinished area where the old bridge was. How exactly did you "Since the bridge was too heavy we removed wood mass from the bridge..." Popcorn at the ready.

[UncleJesse]

That guy on youtube Patrik Lundgren did a sanding/relicing job on his Recording King and it sounds awesome if you've ever heard it.

[stormin1155]

I have very little experience with this. I have restored a handful of old guitars where I have removed very small amounts of the soundboard material to remove blemishes, and they all turned out OK. If anything, the tone and volume improved, and none developed structural problems.

BUT, please don't take this as a green light to thin the top of your guitar or that doing so will necessarily result in better tone. The fact that the very small sample that I've done turned out OK doesn't mean that it's an OK thing to do. The thickness of the top is key to the structural integrity of an acoustic guitar, and changing that is taking a risk that I'm not sure I would in your case. As others have noted, just removing the thick poly and finishing with very thin nitro finish may very well result in improvements.

Just a word about nitro... It isn't a magical finish... it doesn't sound or breathe or vibrate better than other finishes. Any thin finish will likely produce the same result compared to a thick finish.

[Peter Z]

Originally Posted by Eso612

Update
First of all thank you once again for the advice of not thinning the top. It would be a mistake for sure.
1) When we removed the bridge we discovered that it was glued very very bad by RK. On those cheap guitar, quality control is the main issue and this is no exception. There was poor contact between the top and the bridge. So I think bad transmission of sound. I think reglueing it was at least 40% of the improvement.
2) We put only 4 layers of satin nitro finish. A very thin finish but much more protection for the wood than I could imagine. And very good looking to me.
3) We have done new bone nut and saddle and a good set up.

The result? Astonishing!
Now I feel the top really moving when I play. Volume is at least twice than was before, dynamic has increased a lot. Trebles really sings and it is still very well balanced. I was worried about the balance but there is nothing wrong at all. I am sooooo happy with this guitar.
Is it as good as any highly priced guitar? NO! My Santa Cruz FS in of another league, with a more "mature" and sophisticated sound. But this baby is a pure pleasure to play. And it is very versatile. When I play I am lost in the music and I don't miss anything from the guitar. This will stay with me forever.

Warning: I am not saying that this can be done on every guitar to improve it. This was a good work to do on this one, because even if it was fine, I felt it was not playing like it could. And the top finish was very very thick. But you don't see that very often. Please don't think that remove finishing is good for every guitar!!!
I own 10 guitars and I don't think this is good for any other of them!!!

Concratulations! I seem to be one of very few who likes your experiment. I fact I did the same a few years ago with a Sigma DR-28 I had for almost 40 years. It is my first 'real' acoustic that I bought when I was 15. Honestly I had no idea what I was doing. I sanded down the finish, maybe a tiny bit of would and simple sprayed it a couple of times. It worked out nicely, maybe not as good as your work but the guitar was better responding after the little surgery. I would do it a little bit more professional today but I still would do it. My nephew was then learning on this guitar and is still playing it. Love that!
No structural problems.

[ChrisN]

To the OP - I assume the rosette came off with the top finish removal. If you replaced the rosette, what did you use?