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Old 02-18-2021, 11:44 AM
Kittoon Kittoon is offline
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Default How to reconcile flatted 2nd chord in Am (Beatles song)

When learning a new song, (or paying particular attention to an established song) I usually take the following steps:

1) Determine key
2) Determine “cue” note of melody (I have found the “cue” note to be the 5th probably 8 in 10 times. At least in my musical “library”!

3) I “map” the basic chord structure of the song.

4) As “teaching-aid”, I will “pit” my new song’s chord structure against the natural scale, both chords/notes. I note any “outside” chords.

-This technique of comparing the basic chord structure of a song against the natural scale really helps me understand and gives me confidence with the notion of modes/typical chord progressions for a given style. (I then, simply note any diversion from the natural scale. (I do not connect those fancy terms for modes!)

OK. Last night I ran into “Things We Said Today” by the Beatles. The song is in Am. Everything was fine until during the chorus (or bridge) when I ran into a Bflat chord.

No matter how I look at this “outside-chord” I can only reconcile the Bflatt chord as being a flatted-2nd (it certainly cannot be a diminished chord, because while the 3rd and 5th may be flattened, the root would not!)

How does one define/reconcile a flatted 2nd chord?
-It certainly is “outside”.

Last edited by Kittoon; 02-18-2021 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 02-18-2021, 01:55 PM
elninobaby elninobaby is offline
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It’s possible some might see it as a Neapolitan chord. Usually the flatted 2nd in minor is “dominant preparation,” meaning that it would move to E or E7, the dominant of Am. In this song, it doesn’t, it just moves downward by half-step to Am. I could be wrong, but that’s how I see it.
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Old 02-18-2021, 02:26 PM
DungBeatle DungBeatle is offline
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The C, C9 (V9 of VI), F (VI) is a temporary move to F major where Bb is the Subdominant (IV) and Am is the Mediant (iii).
~Bob
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Old 02-18-2021, 04:26 PM
Kittoon Kittoon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DungBeatle View Post
The C, C9 (V9 of VI), F (VI) is a temporary move to F major where Bb is the Subdominant (IV) and Am is the Mediant (iii).
~Bob
Are you suggesting a change of key occurs from the original Am to key of F?
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Old 02-18-2021, 04:59 PM
DungBeatle DungBeatle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kittoon View Post
Are you suggesting a change of key occurs from the original Am to key of F?
Sort of. It'd called a closely related key and you can temporarily use the other key without actually declaring it. The C9 is secondary dominant 9.

https://www.musicnotes.com/now/music...ary-dominants/

~Bob
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Old 02-18-2021, 05:25 PM
stanron stanron is offline
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To me the modulation is on the C chord. That's where the feel of the song changes. Saying the key change is to F makes explaining the Bb chord easier but does not reflect the sound of the song. The change is to C. F is the IV of C. It could also be a secondary modulation with Bb as the IV of F but who cares? We are just playing with words. The song works whichever words we use. The semi tone from Bb to Am is kind of strange but it sounds fine.

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Old 02-19-2021, 10:48 AM
nightchef nightchef is offline
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Originally Posted by stanron View Post
To me the modulation is on the C chord. That's where the feel of the song changes.
But since C is the relative major of Am, that wouldn't be much of a modulation in itself. And the reason why it makes sense to call it a modulation to F is that when the C is followed by the C9, it reveals itself as having a dominant function -- and when C is a dominant chord, you're in F (even if you're only there for a few bars). It certainly feels to me like we've moved to F. The Bb feels like a simple IV chord in the new key, so the abrupt shift back to Am is surprising in a good way.

The Beatles did a lot of experimenting with unexpected harmonic moves like that in their early days (cf. the intro to "If I Fell").

To the OP: I'm curious what you mean by the "cue" note of a melody -- would be interested in hearing more.
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Old 02-19-2021, 11:19 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kittoon View Post
How does one define/reconcile a flatted 2nd chord?
-It certainly is “outside”.
It's a harmony device of its own.

It could be seen, as elninobaby said, as a Neapolitan chord, leading to V, it could be as others suggested leading to an undeclared modulation to F, or it could be a progression in jazz that is a common substitution, functionally, for V.

There are lots of odd-ball progressions. The theory is a guide to understanding patterns, not a law that defines the limits of what progressions can be used. Unusual harmonic progressions can be used to add interest and variety. The limit of how far one can go is limited by listeners' acceptance of what they hear.
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Old 02-19-2021, 12:12 PM
Kittoon Kittoon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightchef View Post
But since C is the relative major of Am, that wouldn't be much of a modulation in itself. And the reason why it makes sense to call it a modulation to F is that when the C is followed by the C9, it reveals itself as having a dominant function -- and when C is a dominant chord, you're in F (even if you're only there for a few bars). It certainly feels to me like we've moved to F. The Bb feels like a simple IV chord in the new key, so the abrupt shift back to Am is surprising in a good way.

The Beatles did a lot of experimenting with unexpected harmonic moves like that in their early days (cf. the intro to "If I Fell").

To the OP: I'm curious what you mean by the "cue" note of a melody -- would be interested in hearing more.
1) To educate myself on how to understand the chord structure (of any song,) I
often pit (compare) the chords of the song against the NATURAL scale.

- This teaches me how chord progressions work in all different styles of music.

- It helps me to grasp the notion(s) of using common techniques/modes
without fussing with details of modes (which I find can be overly
complicated)

- Interesting to me, about a year on this forum, I asked the question “What %
of your “songlist” uses “outside-chords” ???

- The answer matched mine. About 80%
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Old 02-19-2021, 12:20 PM
Kittoon Kittoon is offline
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2) Cue note melody.

To give me a tool to help figure out a melody (of any song),
I have found that approximately 70% of a songs melody begins on the 5th note.

Maybe 15% of songs use the 3rd note. Then 15% of songs melodies actually start on the tonic.

-Once the melody is established, I “weave-in” the actual chords!

Last edited by Kittoon; 02-19-2021 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 02-19-2021, 12:21 PM
Kittoon Kittoon is offline
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I find it interesting how people acquire musical knowledge without a formal teacher!

Last edited by Kittoon; 02-19-2021 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 02-19-2021, 01:17 PM
Cobby Cobby is offline
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I'm sure you also noticed the other chord in this song that doesn't "fit" with the natural scale. That's the B7 in the bridge. In the bridge the song (rather jarringly) modulates to A from Am. Normally the 2 chord in the key of A would be Bm, but here we have B7 instead. The first time it's a secondary dominant (the V of V) (B7 to E7 to A) But the second time instead of B7 to E7, we get this lovely chromatic slide from B7 to Bb to Am to get us back into the key of Am and the verse.

I always loved that - it really tickles my brain at some level. It's my favorite part of the song.
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Old 02-19-2021, 01:46 PM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kittoon View Post
I find it interesting how people acquire musical knowledge without a formal teacher!
They learn songs! That's how the Beatles did it, anyway.
In fact, Paul and George did have a few formal lessons. John Lennon didn't. But they all learned the important stuff by covering other people's songs.

You'll get more insight into this tune here: http://www.icce.rug.nl/~soundscapes/...AWP/twst.shtml
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Old 02-19-2021, 03:31 PM
Kittoon Kittoon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
They learn songs! That's how the Beatles did it, anyway.
In fact, Paul and George did have a few formal lessons. John Lennon didn't. But they all learned the important stuff by covering other people's songs.

You'll get more insight into this tune here: http://www.icce.rug.nl/~soundscapes/...AWP/twst.shtml
I like how Allen W. Pollack views and communicates Beatles music.

I like how he describes the key(s) early on as being BOTH
major AND minor!

I bought a hard-copy of his book about a year ago from Amazon (for I think $35.00
(Who “buys” books anymore!?)

Allen W. Pollack’s insight, sheer quality and vast quantity of knowledge and ability to communicate about Beatles music, is like nothing I have ever seen!

A wonderful resource! WARNING!!! NOT AN EASY READ!!!
NOT AT ALL! ...(You might even need coffee and Ibuprofen!)

Last edited by Kittoon; 02-19-2021 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 02-19-2021, 04:22 PM
Gordon Currie Gordon Currie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kittoon View Post
I find it interesting how people acquire musical knowledge without a formal teacher!
It's pretty common, and not only in music. And with the internet, it is easier than ever to be a self-learner.

My own experience of teaching myself about computers and programming in the late Eighties led directly to a ten year stint at Microsoft.

The Beatles songs are a rich source of study. Many aspects come out of earlier pop traditions, including Tin Pan Alley, but they kept pushing the envelope (without knowing that was happening).

I consider getting the Beatles Complete songbook at 12 years of age the equivalent of (what used to be) a family getting the Encyclopedia Brittania set. A gateway to greater knowledge!
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