how do you count 6/8 time ?

[ombudsman]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Yes, but metre (as represented by a time sig) is an underlying accent pattern. It's nothing to do with where we place accents when improvising, or even when playing a composed melody. Those things are often in deliberate contrast with the implied accents of a metre.
IOW, you're making a different point from the one under discussion .

I think this point is tricky because it mixes convention with theory to some extent. You can write a tune with a rhythmic pattern with unusual accents and spaces without leaving the basic time signature. It's not common in European and American modern music but it's common in Indian and Middle Eastern music where you can have a "one" that is weak and then big accents on later beats or "ands".

So I'm saying the "implied accents" aspect of time signatures that we think of are not universal and are entirely separable from the notation of a piece and what I see as the "size of the basic building block" of the piece.

[Picking Moose]

Originally Posted by JoeCharter

The 3/4 versus 6/8 debate is mostly a notation issue, not a playing one....

This issue is similar to the use of different clefs. Why not use only one clef? It's all a matter of notation.

Please allow me to disagree.
3/4 time has only 1 accent in the bar while 6/8 has two, the first stronger than the second.

Whether you can "hear" that in a given performance or not does not mean there's no difference.

[MICHAEL MYERS]

Originally Posted by Picking Moose

Please allow me to disagree.
3/4 time has only 1 accent in the bar while 6/8 has two, the first stronger than the second.

Whether you can "hear" that in a given performance or not does not mean there's no difference.

Right. But I think it only matters if you are going to stick to that throughout.

Many tunes are notated in 6/8 when 3/4 would be just as applicable.

[islander53]

Originally Posted by MICHAEL MYERS

Many tunes are notated in 6/8 when 3/4 would be just as applicable.

Depends on the feel that the composer wants; the time signature would need to be indicated.

1 - 2 - 3 | 1 - 2 - 3

isn't the same feel as

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 | 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6

The notation must show that.

In the absence of a musical score, such as when learning from a record, it's important to be able to hear the difference as well. 3/4 and 6/8 are not the same in any case.

[Mellow_D]

6/8

The Different Ways of Counting The Same Thing (according to everyone):

1/2/3 2/2/3

1/2/3 4/5/6

One-And-Uh Two-And-Uh

But what about strumming?

(For this question, I'll just use the third example above of counting -- One-And-Uh Two-And-Uh -- though I know they are all the same just different words)

You don't have to strum on each, do you?

I mean, strum on "One", strum on "And", strum on "Uh", strum on "Two", strum on "And", strum on "Uh". (And if you do have to strum on every "word" as you're saying them while tapping your foot, should it be all downstrokes, or alternating downstrokes and upstrokes?)

In other words, do you have to strum in triplets, are you supposed to strum in triplets, if I'm saying that right?

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by Picking Moose

Please allow me to disagree.
3/4 time has only 1 accent in the bar while 6/8 has two, the first stronger than the second.

Whether you can "hear" that in a given performance or not does not mean there's no difference.

You need to read my post again.

You are also comparing ONE 3/4 bar against ONE 6/8 bar, which is incorrect.

TWO 3/4 bars will have just as many accents as ONE 6/8 bar, except in the latter case the second accent might be a lighter one.

As I have indicated, in some classic cases, it is obvious. In other cases, it can be a matter of personal preference.

[MICHAEL MYERS]

Originally Posted by islander5360

Depends on the feel that the composer wants; the time signature would need to be indicated.

1 - 2 - 3 | 1 - 2 - 3

isn't the same feel as

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 | 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6

The notation must show that.

In the absence of a musical score, such as when learning from a record, it's important to be able to hear the difference as well. 3/4 and 6/8 are not the same in any case.

So, what time signature would I have to use if my tune was

1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3

Would that be 3/4 or 6/8

I agree that there is a theoretical difference between 3/4 and 6/8. But a time signature really just denotes the most common feel during a piece. If you place accents all over the place during a solo piece it's a lot harder defined.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by MICHAEL MYERS

Right. But I think it only matters if you are going to stick to that throughout.

Many tunes are notated in 6/8 when 3/4 would be just as applicable.

Time signatures have conventions which communicate how the piece is to be played. Ignoring that helps no one.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by MICHAEL MYERS

But a time signature really just denotes the most common feel during a piece.

Correct.

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Time signatures have conventions which communicate how the piece is to be played. Ignoring that helps no one.

I think we're all saying the same thing but communicating it differently. I don't think MM is suggesting that conventions should be ignored (neither am I).

Some compositions have a fairly consistent feel throughout. Others, not so much.

Some compositions have a historically defined way of being played. Others, not so much.

There's also a lot of indicators beside the time signature that provide information on phrasing -- which in my view are far more significant than the base unit that's being used.

We're just evoking the grey areas here, not denying tradition.

[HHP]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

6/8

The Different Ways of Counting The Same Thing (according to everyone):

1/2/3 2/2/3

1/2/3 4/5/6

One-And-Uh Two-And-Uh

But what about strumming?

(For this question, I'll just use the third example above of counting -- One-And-Uh Two-And-Uh -- though I know they are all the same just different words)

You don't have to strum on each, do you?

I mean, strum on "One", strum on "And", strum on "Uh", strum on "Two", strum on "And", strum on "Uh". (And if you do have to strum on every "word" as you're saying them while tapping your foot, should it be all downstrokes, or alternating downstrokes and upstrokes?)

In other words, do you have to strum in triplets, are you supposed to strum in triplets, if I'm saying that right?

6/8 will count 1-2-3-2-2-3 in a given measure. You will have 2 beats per measure. Simplest pattern to accompany is downstroke on 1 and 2. Can strum figure of 3 just like the melody or you can do something like 1-x-3-2-x-3 which is a bit like a shuffle rhythm.

Chord changes will tend to fall on the 1 or the 2

[stanron]

An alternative to the shuffle rhythm is alternating up and down strokes.

DOWN up down UP down up

This has a more insistent feel and is sometimes used to accompany jigs.

[Mellow_D]

Originally Posted by HHP

6/8 will count 1-2-3-2-2-3 in a given measure. You will have 2 beats per measure. Simplest pattern to accompany is downstroke on 1 and 2. Can strum figure of 3 just like the melody or you can do something like 1-x-3-2-x-3 which is a bit like a shuffle rhythm.

Chord changes will tend to fall on the 1 or the 2

Related Question:

I think if you wanted to put in "and beats", the WORDS you use to count could make strumming confusing, based on which manner of counting you use, that is saying "1/2/3 2/2/3 or 1/2/3 4/5/6" versus saying "One/and/uh Two/and/uh". I understand both ways of counting are the same, that, as another member said, could say "DOG-rock-fish CAT-stone-tree" if you wanted. But which way you say it can get awkward when it comes to adding those "and beats" ...

Meaning, like in this video, at 2 minutes and 34 seconds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7FlpQY3mmQ

He counts 1/2/3 4/5/6 with a downstroke on each number. So far, so good.

But if you want to -- as he says at 2 minutes and 52 seconds -- add ""and beats you can put in there as upstrokes" ... which he shows at 3 minutes and 11 seconds, where he strums and says: "one, two, three, four, five and six"

First question, where does the "and" go; is that written as:

1/2/3 4/5 and/6
or
1/2/3 4/5/and 6



Secondly, if you were to do the above as he does, putting in those "and beats", but instead if you were counting using the "One/and/uh Two/and/uh" ... wouldn't it come out this way: "One/and/uh Two/and and/uh"

In other words,

1/2/3 4/5 and/6 is the same as saying One/and/uh Two/and and/uh

Is that correct? (And so then isn't it better to count 1/2/3 4/5/6" than "One/and/uh Two/and/uh" because if you starting putting in "and beats" (his term) you have to say the word "and" multiple times when counting the latter way? And it just feels more awkward, even though it would be correct.)

(Oh I hope that made sense what I just asked.)

---

[HHP]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

Related Question:

I think if you wanted to put in "and beats", the WORDS you use to count could make strumming confusing, based on which manner of counting you use, that is saying "1/2/3 2/2/3 or 1/2/3 4/5/6" versus saying "One/and/uh Two/and/uh". I understand both ways of counting are the same, that, as another member said, could say "DOG-rock-fish CAT-stone-tree" if you wanted. But which way you say it can get awkward when it comes to adding those "and beats" ...

Meaning, like in this video, at 2 minutes and 34 seconds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7FlpQY3mmQ

He counts 1/2/3 4/5/6 with a downstroke on each number. So far, so good.

But if you want to -- as he says at 2 minutes and 52 seconds -- add ""and beats you can put in there as upstrokes" ... which he shows at 3 minutes and 11 seconds, where he strums and says:

1/2/3 4/5 and/6 (or is it 1/2/3 4/5/and 6?)

Well, my question, if you were to do the above as he does, putting in those "and beats", but instead if you were counting using the "One/and/uh Two/and/uh" ... wouldn't it come out this way: "One/and/uh Two/and and/uh"

In other words,

1/2/3 4/5 and/6 is the same as saying One/and/uh Two/and and/uh

Is that correct? (And so then isn't it better to count 1/2/3 4/5/6" than "One/and/uh Two/and/uh" because if you starting putting in "and beats" (his term) you have to say the word "and" multiple times when counting the latter way? And it just feels more awkward, even though it would be correct.)

(Oh hope that made sense what I just asked.)

---

It all works depending on the music. Develop any pattern you want as along as it fits the beats and feel you want. I wouldn't do all downstrokes myself because in 6/8, I'm probably playing a fast jig and would do a D-U-D-D-U-D pattern which is the same I use to play the melody in 6/8.

[ombudsman]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

Related Question:

I think if you wanted to put in "and beats", the WORDS you use to count could make strumming confusing, based on which manner of counting you use, that is saying "1/2/3 2/2/3 or 1/2/3 4/5/6" versus saying "One/and/uh Two/and/uh". I understand both ways of counting are the same, that, as another member said, could say "DOG-rock-fish CAT-stone-tree" if you wanted. But which way you say it can get awkward when it comes to adding those "and beats" ...

Meaning, like in this video, at 2 minutes and 34 seconds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7FlpQY3mmQ

He counts 1/2/3 4/5/6 with a downstroke on each number. So far, so good.

But if you want to -- as he says at 2 minutes and 52 seconds -- add ""and beats you can put in there as upstrokes" ... which he shows at 3 minutes and 11 seconds, where he strums and says: "one, two, three, four, five and six"

First question, where does the "and" go; is that written as:

1/2/3 4/5 and/6
or
1/2/3 4/5/and 6



Secondly, if you were to do the above as he does, putting in those "and beats", but instead if you were counting using the "One/and/uh Two/and/uh" ... wouldn't it come out this way: "One/and/uh Two/and and/uh"

In other words,

1/2/3 4/5 and/6 is the same as saying One/and/uh Two/and and/uh

Is that correct? (And so then isn't it better to count 1/2/3 4/5/6" than "One/and/uh Two/and/uh" because if you starting putting in "and beats" (his term) you have to say the word "and" multiple times when counting the latter way? And it just feels more awkward, even though it would be correct.)

(Oh I hope that made sense what I just asked.)

---

an "and beat" is a half beat. It's always the second half of a beat, which we call an upbeat, it's when the conductor's baton would rise back up to be ready for the next beat (downbeat).

Mixing those with the "one and a two and a" representation of a rhythm is a bad idea. (I mostly hear that "one and a..." method used for counting in songs, where you would not need to indicate any "ands".)

the first one of these could work, if your intention was to indicate an upbeat on beat 5 and so long as the time you spent saying the "5 and" was equal to the time you were on each of the other beats (since the "and" represents the upbeat half of the fifth beat, as written here):

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

1/2/3 4/5 and/6
or
1/2/3 4/5/and 6

The second one does not work at all because the "and" precedes the 6, and yet is after beat 6 based on where the slash falls; it can't do that.

What I think you meant to do (in this, again, ill advised approach) would be shown as

1/2/3 4/5/6 and

where you say the "6 and" quickly so that the last beat (including the "and") is no longer than any of the other beats.

The important things are that the "and" (upbeat) can be represented or not, but when it is represented it doesn't change the length of the beat and it must be exactly at the halfway point of the beat.

[Mellow_D]

Originally Posted by ombudsman

What I think you meant to do (in this, again, ill advised approach) would be shown as

1/2/3 4/5/6 and

where you say the "6 and" quickly so that the last beat (including the "and") is no longer than any of the other beats.

The important things are that the "and" (upbeat) can be represented or not, but when it is represented it doesn't change the length of the beat and it must be exactly at the halfway point of the beat.

in the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7FlpQY3mmQ

At 3 minutes and 11 seconds, he strums and says: "ONE, two, three, FOUR, five and six"

He says "AND" between the five and six, so how could it be written, or why is it written, as you suggest: 1/2/3 4/5/6 and