ANOTHER PROBLEM?!?!?!?!?

[shufflebeat]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Why this would only work on the Ovation with the tuner turned on is anyone's guess,

Originally Posted by Previous comments

A) - Could be the preamp is relying on a TS jack (unbalanced) to make the switch connection on the preamp; no connection - no signal, but the tuner is designed to work when the guitar isn't plugged in (I'm guessing here) and has it's own switching system which also engages the preamp.

B) - It's probably a preamp thing. Yes, the turner works plugged or unplugged.

I think that's the answer

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Guitarplayer_PR

I think you are the one misinformed. Actually, there are balanced cables for instruments. Like I already said, I used that cable with my Taylor with no problems. The "problem" was with the Ovation, in which it only works when I turn on the tuner. It's like using the tuner doesn't cancel the signal, but when I don't use it, it does.

Does your Ovation have an XLR female balanced output connector next to the 1/4 inch jack? The higher-end Ovations often have both these connections present on the bowl. If you only have a 1/4 inch jack it's likely unbalanced and using a tip-ring-sleeve 1/4 inch plug as can be used for a Taylor ES1 magnetic system (you can use either a 1/4 inch balanced or unbalanced cable with the ES1 systems) in the 1/4 inch jack may not enable your Ovation to function properly.

[Goat Mick]

Originally Posted by Guitarplayer_PR

Getting straight to the point: I bought this balanced cable (1/4 to 1/4) to hear any difference between it and an unbalanced cable. For now, the difference is there, but kind of subtle; but that's not what moved to write this. When I played the cable with my Taylor, everything was fine; but when I played it with my Ovation (OP-Pro preamp), it ONLY worked when I engaged the tuner. How come?

In a nutshell, a "balanced" cable isn't interchangeable with a standard guitar cable. I'm pretty sure some of the Taylor pickups are designed to be used with either a TRS cable or a standard TS cable. Your Ovation is designed to be used with a standard cable. Your assumption that a "balanced" cable will make your signal cleaner or hotter was incorrect. Each of these cables are designed for different functions. A TRS cable carries two signals plus a ground. A TS cable is only to carry a signal plus ground. This article snip may help clarify things for you.

[Guitarplayer_PR]

Originally Posted by Goat Mick

In a nutshell, a "balanced" cable isn't interchangeable with a standard guitar cable. I'm pretty sure some of the Taylor pickups are designed to be used with either a TRS cable or a standard TS cable. Your Ovation is designed to be used with a standard cable. Your assumption that a "balanced" cable will make your signal cleaner or hotter was incorrect. Each of these cables are designed for different functions. A TRS cable carries two signals plus a ground. A TS cable is only to carry a signal plus ground. This article snip may help clarify things for you.

Thanks for the info.

Curiously, I checked into the specs of the ES2, and it clearly states that it's made to be used with unbalanced cables and that TRS cables won't work with it. So I think the same goes for the OP-Pro.

[Goat Mick]

Originally Posted by Guitarplayer_PR

Thanks for the info.

Curiously, I checked into the specs of the ES2, and it clearly states that it's made to be used with unbalanced cables and that TRS cables won't work with it. So I think the same goes for the OP-Pro.

Is there any chance your Taylor has the first version of the Expression System? Those were designed to take either a standard unbalanced cable or a TRS balanced cable.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Guitarplayer_PR

Thanks for the info.

Curiously, I checked into the specs of the ES2, and it clearly states that it's made to be used with unbalanced cables and that TRS cables won't work with it. So I think the same goes for the OP-Pro.

If the year of your listed Taylors is correct, 2011, you have the Taylor ES1.3 pickup/preamp system which is designed to be used with either a balanced (two types: 1/4 inch TRS to XLR and 1/4 inch TRS to 1/4 inch TRS) cables or an unbalanced 1/4 TS to 1/4 TS instrument cable. Taylor sells all three which I have from my ES1.2/ES1.3 Taylor days. Taylor started installing the newer ES2 piezo-based system in their 2013 Fall Limited Edition models and continued to roll out the ES2 into more of their series over the next couple of years. As mentioned, the ES2 is designed to be used with an unbalanced instrument cable.

[ohiopicker]

The Ovation is made to work so that, with a conventional TS cable, the signal is passed to the amp when the tuner is off. when the tuner is on, the signal to the amp is shunted. That being the case, you need to use a TS cable from guitar to amp. If for some reason that does not work, it sounds like you have a pre-amp wiring problem.

[MarkF_48]

The other piece of the puzzle is what you might be plugging the other end of the cord into. Most instrument amplifiers do not have balanced inputs for instruments, have a gain structure for low signals of an instrument, and are generally Hi-Z so as to not load down the output of the instrument. Conversely balanced inputs may have a gain structure for line levels and an input impedance of around 10kohms or less which could load down the instrument signal and alter how it sounds. To achieve a balanced connection both the source and gear it's connected to need to have balanced circuit design with appropriate connectors (TRS or XLR). The 'balanced' cable only facilitates the connection and can not create a balanced circuit in itself if either end it connects to is unbalanced.

I have an Ibanez guitar with an XLR output connector and this is a balanced output. Essentially it's a DI box built into to guitars preamp output circuit and could be connected to a Low-Z microphone input.

[Bill Yellow]

Guys, really a 'cable' is not balanced or unbalanced. It's just wires. A 2-core plus shield cable terminated with a TRS jack or an XLR plug is capable of carrying balanced signals (ie an in-phase and out-of-phase version of the signal). A single core +shield cable with mono jacks is not able to carry a balanced signal.

But the signal has to be balanced, at least at one end, by some active (ie powered) electronics. The other end could have an active or passive balanced socket.

This is why if you put a passive DI box at either end of an XLR cable, you will not have balanced the signal in the cable. In fact you will probably have attenuated it.

In short, there is no such thing as a balanced cable. Only an electronically balanced signal.

[varmonter]

Originally Posted by shufflebeat

Does the guitar have a balanced output?



Could be the preamp is relying on a TS jack (unbalanced) to make the switch connection on the preamp; no connection - no signal, but the tuner is designed to work when the guitar isn't plugged in (I'm guessing here) and has it's own switching system which also engages the preamp.

Either way, if the signal isn't balanced then a balanced cable is not appropriate.

Originally Posted by Goat Mick

In a nutshell, a "balanced" cable isn't interchangeable with a standard guitar cable. I'm pretty sure some of the Taylor pickups are designed to be used with either a TRS cable or a standard TS cable. Your Ovation is designed to be used with a standard cable. Your assumption that a "balanced" cable will make your signal cleaner or hotter was incorrect. Each of these cables are designed for different functions. A TRS cable carries two signals plus a ground. A TS cable is only to carry a signal plus ground. This article snip may help clarify things for you.

I think this is it in a nutshell.
Your not passing twice as much signal as you
Would with a mono cable. Your only still passing
One line the other is not used.
When you use a mono cable On the ovation the
tuner mutes the signal to the preamp by sending
Or switching it to the area of the mono jack that's
Occupied by the ring of the stereo jack. So when
You plug the stereo jack In and engage the tuner
You get a signal. Your gaining nothing by using
The TRS cable...well your gaining an issue.
If you need a better/hotter signal get a better mono
Cable.
It's not a balanced signal because it's still
Only using one leg of the stereo cable.
The source determines the phase out of phase
Send to make it balanced. That's one signal
Down two paths out of phase with each other
to cancel noise picked up by long cable runs.
A trs or stereo 1/4 will send 2 different signals
Say from a mic inside your guitar and a piezo
Under saddle. Out to some device capable of
Blending the two signals.

[shufflebeat]

Originally Posted by Bill Yellow

Guys, really a 'cable' is not balanced or unbalanced. It's just wires. A 2-core plus shield cable terminated with a TRS jack or an XLR plug is capable of carrying balanced signals (ie an in-phase and out-of-phase version of the signal). A single core +shield cable with mono jacks is not able to carry a balanced signal.

This is correct, except it's polarity, not phase. However, it is common practice to refer to mic leads, etc. as "balanced cable" in the context of these discussions. Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as a school bus but if you put a load of kids in a bus and take them to school the term is appropriate.

But the signal has to be balanced, at least at one end, by some active (ie powered) electronics. The other end could have an active or passive balanced socket.

This is incorrect, the signal could be converted to balanced passively with a small transformer, as in most dynamic mics.

This is why if you put a passive DI box at either end of an XLR cable, you will not have balanced the signal in the cable. In fact you will probably have attenuated it.

You will have done both. The 1st passive DI, wired conventionally, will have converted the signal to balance and the 2nd, with a gender changer to accept an XLRm, will result in an unbalanced signal, much like what happens at mixing desk preamps.

In short, there is no such thing as a balanced cable. Only an electronically balanced signal.

Not as simple as that.