I don't even know what to say ?

[jessupe]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

Nah, I farmed out that part of the job!

pfff, sub'er'

[Portland Bill]

Originally Posted by rogthefrog

I expect this is about Somogyi. Yes, he has a specialist do the French polish on his guitars. If Somogyi feels another person can do a better job than he on his guitars, I trust his recommendation. I've seen the results and they are spectacular.

Why shouldn't he charge for it? The finisher has to get paid somehow.

I have seen some of his rosettes done in the Spanish style, that are truly dreadful, far superior ones are widely available online, why not use one of those on a 40k guitar ?

[Simon Fay]

Hi Portland Bill,
First of all - good question and I understand where you are coming from. I haven't read through all these pages and so I don't know if other builders have chimed in about outsourcing -- but the matter on outsourcing is actually very straightforward and reasonable.

Why outsource?
Due to the advances in finish technology over the past couple decades, most guitarists are used to the modern finishes which are very durable. The downside is that these modern finishes also tend to be extremely toxic. There is also the issue that finishing can take up a lot of work space and a good spraying setup can be expensive. Ideally, you have a whole separate area and clean room (very little dust). One of the more common finish types that used to be popular is nitrocellulose lacquer; however, it really doesn't measure up to the newer finish types and is still dangerous but not nearly as toxic. So it might be a good compromise that a solo luthier can still do.

In my case, I will never work with these chemicals because I am very health conscious and so I outsource to a guy who sprays a polyester finish that is very well done and incredibly thin (roughly 0.002" on the soundboard). I don't have the space and I don't want to mess with these chemicals. That leaves me French Polish or varnish as the only two things I would consider applying myself. Varnish can be a great finish but I prefer the polyester because it is significantly more durable and feel it is the most sensible finish for most of my customers. French Polish is a finish I offer as a nod to traditional build and also because it is tonally superior to all other finishes with the exception of a very thin varnish. However, it is delicate and not for every customer but it can be easily repaired which is untrue for pretty much every other finish type. There are a number of very talented builders like Walker and Sexauer who prefer varnish as it is definitely more durable than French Polish but there are some disadvantages to the finish that result in my decision to offer 2 different finish types -- an outsourced polyester or a French Polish that I apply myself.

I hope that sheds some light on the topic. As you can see, there are very practical reasons that lead some of us to outsource finish work. As a customer, I can understand how if you are paying top dollar for a specific luthier's guitar, then you would want them to do everything. However, it is simply not uncommon nor non-traditional for high-end guitars to be built by a specific builder and for the finish to be applied by a different skilled artisan.

[Portland Bill]

Having read some of the contributions from builders, and thank them for their input, I can accept the notion of another person doing the finish, just as I wouldn't expect the builder to make the tuners or fret wire, especially if the guitar is reasonably priced.
But at the massively elevated price level we are discussing I'm afraid for me personally its a step too far.
From what i gather a lot of other work is not carried out by the person on the label, this I would class as a workshop guitar and not a sole luthier instrument and I would expect that to be reflected in the price.

[Marcus Wong]

Originally Posted by Portland Bill

Having read some of the contributions from builders, and thank them for their input, I can accept the notion of another person doing the finish, just as I wouldn't expect the builder to make the tuners or fret wire, especially if the guitar is reasonably priced.
But at the massively elevated price level we are discussing I'm afraid for me personally its a step too far.
From what i gather a lot of other work is not carried out by the person on the label, this I would class as a workshop guitar and not a sole luthier instrument and I would expect that to be reflected in the price.

I agree to a certain extent. I think that outsourcing finish is a minor issue as many have said, it's harmful to the luthier's health and requires a lot of equipment + space. But about the luthier in question, the fact that he isn't building as a solo luthier should indeed be reflected in the price IMO. It is the same with many businesses, not just lutherie, where you would pay less to have an apprentice carry out the service like in dentistry or hairdressing. Lowden guitars is an example of how he charges his workshop guitars accordingly while having a separate solo luthier line which is priced accordingly as well.

But if people still want to pay $40K for it, that is their own choice and it shows that the market forces are indeed working for the luthier and there's nothing much we can do about it.

[ukejon]

On my Hatcher, the back and sides were sprayed on by an outside specialist but the soundboard and neck were French Polished by the master himself....so I get the best of both worlds.

Regarding the OP's question of cost relative to outsourcing certain build features, you are able to make your own decision as to whether the builder's choices match your own. No right or wrong here. To my way of thinking, the finish is less of an issue than other build characteristics. Not sure I would want to pay $30,000 for a guitar that was wholly or even largely built by an apprentice. I'd like to know that the master maker had a real hand in the carving of the braces, the sound shaping of the top and other elements, the carving of the neck, and the like. Knowing that a guitar with the great maker's name on it was in fact made by someone else would certainly cause me to pause when considering a purchase.

[iim7V7IM7]

A couple more thoughts..

This thread seems to be drifting away from the subject luthier applied finish vs. contracting a finisher to a discussion of the value proposition and quality of an esteemed builder's work and shop practices. There has been some informative discussion on the former subject here.

While we all may have our opinions on a particular builder, I would suggest that we not go there in this thread. Doing so will no doubt lead to some hurt feelings and the ensuing internet forum fodder that follows.

My $.02

[Wozer]

Originally Posted by rogthefrog

I expect this is about Somogyi. Yes, he has a specialist do the French polish on his guitars. If Somogyi feels another person can do a better job than he on his guitars, I trust his recommendation. I've seen the results and they are spectacular.

Why shouldn't he charge for it? The finisher has to get paid somehow.

from what I understand, Ervin has become rather sensitized to the finishing process...read that as meaning allergic...over time all of those chemicals and solvents can create some issues for some...I can deal with oil based products, but lacquers get me going real quick in a bad and toxic way...

skipping that, as noted there is nothing wrong with outsourcing the finishing process...sure, it can make a difference in sound, but properly applied (read that as not too thick) anybody can do it...point being the luthier is still doing his/her work that counts, the sound, playability, artistic nature of the work, etc...

having taken the time to read this whole thread in it's entirety, I see my comment about Somogyi becoming sensitized has been mentioned...

I also noted some disparaging comments about apprentices doing some of the work...erm, that's part of the apprenticeship process...how else does the 'apprentice' get to learn? it can be assured the 'apprentice' is under the dictates of the 'master' most all times...skipping a long diatribe on the whole process, let's conclude with the concept that many times the apprentice will overtake the master in certain areas, and there is EVERYTHING right about this, in fact that would be part of the reasons for the process, building upon the experience of others to go to the next level (which is pretty much the evolution of the human race)

[The Bard Rocks]

Every guitar that I have seen has had some outsourced parts to it. I don't know of a single luthier who makes their own (metal) tuners. Most don't make bridge pins. Some may use ready-made fretboards. Most don't go to the rainforest, select trees, saw them down, cut them up, cure & age them, and then resaw them.

I find it admirable when a builder makes (nearly) everything. Maybe it's worth paying extra for. My greater concern is the end product and how much I like it - now that's worth paying extra for.

[ukejon]

Originally Posted by Wozer

from what I understand, Ervin has become rather sensitized to the finishing process...read that as meaning allergic...over time all of those chemicals and solvents can create some issues for some...I can deal with oil based products, but lacquers get me going real quick in a bad and toxic way...

skipping that, as noted there is nothing wrong with outsourcing the finishing process...sure, it can make a difference in sound, but properly applied (read that as not too thick) anybody can do it...point being the luthier is still doing his/her work that counts, the sound, playability, artistic nature of the work, etc...

having taken the time to read this whole thread in it's entirety, I see my comment about Somogyi becoming sensitized has been mentioned...

I also noted some disparaging comments about apprentices doing some of the work...erm, that's part of the apprenticeship process...how else does the 'apprentice' get to learn? it can be assured the 'apprentice' is under the dictates of the 'master' most all times...skipping a long diatribe on the whole process, let's conclude with the concept that many times the apprentice will overtake the master in certain areas, and there is EVERYTHING right about this, in fact that would be part of the reasons for the process, building upon the experience of others to go to the next level (which is pretty much the evolution of the human race)

You are offering up a bit of hyperbole in suggesting these comments are simply disparaging or anti-apprenticeship. Apprentices learn in many ways: 1) initially through lots of observation and mastering of rudimentary skills, 2) then through lots of practice, 3) and finally through the actual application of these skills on instruments but again only after spending a lot of time on the first two. With that in mind, as a customer who is spending a great deal of money to have an instrument made by a great maker, I personally would like the bulk of the work--especially the sensitive voicing and shaping work--to be done by that particular maker. Mark Hatcher made my guitar....that is what I wanted and I probably would not have bought it I thought that the guitar was largely being made by an apprentice. Certainly Somogyi runs a larger operation and a fairly sophisticated apprentice and teaching process, but even then before buying I would actually like to know who is making my guitar. Might not be a deal breaker but as with my friend Mau I want a guitar that in fact was made by a particular artist.

[Glenn23]

Putting on the finish is like framing a painting. The artwork is already done at that point.

[Trevor M]

That's a good point.

[bdm0509]

Originally Posted by Glenn23

Putting on the finish is like framing a painting. The artwork is already done at that point.

That's a poor and inaccurate simile. Finish has a dramatic effect on the tone of the instrument. The frame does not fundamentally affect the look of a painting.

You -might- compare finish to the glass put atop the painting (although I still think you're separating finish from the instrument in a far more discrete way than is accurate). At least with this metaphor, the glass can both damage the underlying art, and dramatically affect how its perceived by changing its coloring, texture, etc.

Finish is not a frame. It's an inseparable part of the instrument and applied to the top directly.

-Brett

[Bruce Sexauer]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

So, 20 minus 5 is... and $500 divided by 15 gives me... multiply that by 5... does this mean I can send you a guitar to spray lacquer, and be billed time and materials?

I do not often do repair, restoration, or finish work for others. I do try to make $45 an hour when I am building guitars with my name on them as that is what it takes for me to "break even" supporting my family as the sole provider. 15 years ago when I made the price ajustment I described, my cost of living was lower, so the $33 to $41.66 your calculation would show was about right.

Also, I do not do lacquer at all any more. For one thing, it is illegal in my neck of the woods with the equipment I can afford, and for another it is inadvisable given the multiple hazards it is known to represent. I never liked working with nitrocellulose lacquer, and the opposite is true with the traditional oil varnish I currently use. While not exactly an exciting process, it has a sort of zen quality and is very pleasant and satisfying for me. Of course it is only 16% of the job, time wise.

[jessupe]

Originally Posted by ukejon

You are offering up a bit of hyperbole in suggesting these comments are simply disparaging or anti-apprenticeship. Apprentices learn in many ways: 1) initially through lots of observation and mastering of rudimentary skills, 2) then through lots of practice, 3) and finally through the actual application of these skills on instruments but again only after spending a lot of time on the first two. With that in mind, as a customer who is spending a great deal of money to have an instrument made by a great maker, I personally would like the bulk of the work--especially the sensitive voicing and shaping work--to be done by that particular maker. Mark Hatcher made my guitar....that is what I wanted and I probably would not have bought it I thought that the guitar was largely being made by an apprentice. Certainly Somogyi runs a larger operation and a fairly sophisticated apprentice and teaching process, but even then before buying I would actually like to know who is making my guitar. Might not be a deal breaker but as with my friend Mau I want a guitar that in fact was made by a particular artist.

I think most of this post is really about several topics in one, mostly related to business model. Things to factor in

1. the lifespan of the maker
2. the type of business model a maker can or wants to operate, a one man show, or with employees and or sub contractors
3. that understanding with success, age and developing a brand comes options with how one wants to do things. And how success forces one to re examine the way they are doing things, its a very common issue in most all buisness, "do we expand, or do we keep it the way it is.
4. If it gets to a point where a maker has developed a brand, and the orders keep coming in, as a one man show, there is only so much product a person can put out, so the waiting list gets longer, the turn around gets longer and the prices go up, and that may be a perfect place for a person to be, but it does give the option to hire people, create more product, get subs involved and develop things into a bigger operation, which may or may not be appealing to both the customer and the luthier.

Ervin Somyogi has had a long illustrious career, has established many followers with not only his products, but his role in teaching and
expanding some understanding of the mechanics of it all. I personally don't "follow" other makers like they are gurus, but on the other hand I think Somyogi earned the right to charge what he does, people are willing to pay for the name brand and that as long as buyers are aware of what they are getting,and what they are really paying for, well the choice is there's

I, at least for now, personally much prefer the one man show operation as basically when it comes right down to it, with certain aspects of my personality, with certain things, I'm a control freak I like to put the sherp in sherpa