I don't even know what to say ?

[jessupe]

Originally Posted by TomB'sox

I think you are missing my point. I think builders who want to do their own finishes should do their own finishes, especially with a violin for example. I also feel that if another builder would rather send to someone who does nothing but finishing, that does not diminish them in my eyes whatsoever. The statement I bolded says to me that unless the luthier is doing the finish work somehow it does not involve art/skill/materials of what hand made is. How does where it is finish detract from art and skill. The finisher has to have that same level of art and skill to be good at it. Lots of world class luthiers do not do their own, Jason Kostal, Somogyi have been mentioned in this thread already. I have a Kinnaird and a Hatcher which were both finished in Michigan, they are world class.

I'm sorry, I will state again that there is nothing wrong at all with subing out certain things or using prefab, and I understand that many "world class" makers do.

Half the battle imo is getting brand recognition in order to dictate how it is one wants to do things....I see being able to get to the point where you can get 30/40k an instrument and decide if you want to sub stuff out or not an achievement and a moniker of success.

To me I see subing out much more as a sign of success in that one can opt to do what they want to, and let someone else do the other part that they don't want to do or can't do, just cause they personally can't do it, does not diminish the fact that they established a "brand" and become very successful, nor does it make them any less of an "artist" or not, however, that does not diminish anything either for those that do

I think this gets into vein splits of what someone wants, some people are more turned on by a high quality thing that was entirely hand made in every aspect, that's what appeals to them, and some people are turned on by a high quality thing that has more leaning on the "brand" in either event, they are both quality "things" that appeal to different people for different reasons....there is no wrong, just different

Some people varnish means something, not only what it is, but how and who applied it, others it doesn't....no ones right or wrong...all just personal preferences in my mind

edit; "How does where it is finish detract from art and skill."

related to this statement, for established makers, in this case, not one bit, however on the other side of the spectrum, both non established or established makers {as in Mr. Sexauers case} will use the fact that they are in control of the vertical and horizontal as far as varnish goes as a point of note that many people find appealing and that a luthier may use it as a selling point.

[iim7V7IM7]

A few thoughts...

"Finish" on acoustic guitars is a broad spectrum of materials and processes from hand applied shellac (French Polish), hand applied or sprayed oil varnish, to sprayed nitrocellulose lacquers and polyurethane finishes. What is important to me is that the builder has some directorial influence on the application of the finish whether done by themselves or by a partner/specialist, and that they understand its affect on the acoustics of the instrument so they can predictably account for this when working the wood (pre-finish). We focus too much on the material and not enough on the application process. Aside from learning curve issues, I also think that environmental and workplace health issues drive some luthiers in this direction.

I do have a deep artistic/craftsman respect for artisans who mill their own woods, make their own marquetry and do their own finishes. That said, Tony Ferguson and Addam Stark are both guitar finishers with excellent reputations and are used by many luthiers whose work frequents this forums. There is a trend in an internet (visually influenced) media to seek perfect, glossy finishes with tend to be thicker as a result. I prefer thinner, acoustically light, less robust somewhat imperfect finishes by modern standards on my instruments.

My $.02

[jessupe]

Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

A few thoughts...

"Finish" on acoustic guitars is a broad spectrum of materials and processes from hand applied shellac (French Polish), hand applied or sprayed oil varnish, to sprayed nitrocellulose lacquers and polyurethane finishes. What is important to me is that the builder has some directorial influence on the application of the finish whether done by themselves or by a partner/specialist, and that they understand its affect on the acoustics of the instrument so they can predictably account for this when working the wood (pre-finish). We focus too much on the material and not enough on the application process. Aside from learning curve issues, I also think that environmental and workplace health issues drive some luthiers in this direction.

I do have a deep artistic/craftsman respect for artisans who mill their own woods, make their own marquetry and do their own finishes. That said, Tony Ferguson and Addam Stark are both guitar finishers with excellent reputations and are used by many luthiers whose work frequents this forums. There is a trend in an internet (visually influenced) media to seek perfect, glossy finishes with tend to be thicker as a result. I prefer thinner, acoustically light, less robust somewhat imperfect finishes by modern standards on my instruments.

My $.02

yes, absolutely, this could be like arguing over if vanilla or chocolate ice cream is better...

I just think the OP is surprised to learn or understand that some makers choose to or have created the option to work in teams with other super skilled people and they all have their role in it all....and that not all makers, like myself are the singular in house sherpa's sitting on the hillside picking the rye grass that will be woven into the shoes.

nobody's right, nobody's wrong....just what someone wants or appeals to them

[printer2]

Sure you could get the builders who send their instruments out to do the finish themselves. But do you really want to pay double what the instrument is costing you already?

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by Portland Bill

There is a sales ad that suggests a builder who charges nearly 40k$ for his guitars uses someone else to finish them, is this correct?

You may be shocked to know said builder also has two apprentices (who are great guys and turning out to be world-class builders in their own right) doing work on these guitars as well. Doesn't split logs outside with a froe, doesn't chuck fossilized ivory on a lathe to make bridge pins, not many that can or do.

In Somogyi's book he does explain that he doesn't spray lacquer anymore because of years of doing so affecting him to the point of being overly sensitive to it. He also explains how he went to Ed Clark to learn how to do French polishing. It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect that he'd develop sensitivity to working with shellac and alcohol?

[Bruce Sexauer]

Originally Posted by printer2

Sure you could get the builders who send their instruments out to do the finish themselves. But do you really want to pay double what the instrument is costing you already?

I should raise my prices? My survival is not currently threatened at the present level. . . Lacquer is about 5 to 8 hours of labor, and my current oil varnish finsh is about 20 of the 150 hours my guitars take. When I shifted to 100% varnish finished guitars, about 15 years ago, I raised my base price $500 to cover the difference.

[rogthefrog]

I only buy guitars where the bone used to make the saddle and nut was obtained from an animal hunted, killed and chopped up by the luthier him/herself.

[jessupe]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

You may be shocked to know said builder also has two apprentices (who are great guys and turning out to be world-class builders in their own right) doing work on these guitars as well. Doesn't split logs outside with a froe, doesn't chuck fossilized ivory on a lathe to make bridge pins, not many that can or do.

In Somogyi's book he does explain that he doesn't spray lacquer anymore because of years of doing so affecting him to the point of being overly sensitive to it. He also explains how he went to Ed Clark to learn how to do French polishing. It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect that he'd develop sensitivity to working with shellac and alcohol?

If the regulation Nazi's were not poisoning natural Ethanol 100 grain alc with poisonous Methanol in order to protect you from yourselves and or allowed the free sales of products like everclear, the only issue would be how to avoid becoming a systemic alcholoc but as it stands now, mentholated alc is quite toxic and skin and resprotory protection should be worn during it's use, I try to do any "spirit/shellac" based coating outside if possible, and try to always wear gloves when handling it. MSDS sheets are available for anyone who wants to learn about toxicity issues...

Soymogi's a pimp, living legend and can do what ever the heck he wants imo and it wont diminish one thing he has done. Again there is absolutely nothing wrong working with other people and or having them do certain aspects of the work. Just like there's nothing wrong with someone who works alone and does it all.

[LouieAtienza]

There are other reasons luthiers farm out finishing work. It wasn't that long ago that people would just stick a fan on a window and begin spraying. Today's regulations (thank God) require compliant spray booth with filtration, as well as proper safety gear; I would bet this is a setup not many small builders have the luxury of having. Related to that is the cost of spray equipment - guns, hoses, compressors, the aforementioned spray booth. Even the cost of the additional space necessary, or whether it is available, should be factored in. Finally there is the issue of health and safety. Probably the largest concern for me. Even with a respirator, and Tyvek suit, I still can smell the stuff on me. I was a bit more carefree spraying when I was younger. A lot more careful nowadays.

[jessupe]

Originally Posted by rogthefrog

I only buy guitars where the bone used to make the saddle and nut was obtained from an animal hunted, killed and chopped up by the luthier him/herself.

That reminds me of the time I was in Zanzibar, an outing in the Josani forest, there, staring the beast right in the eye, I carefully unsheathed my dagger... and then....lol

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by rogthefrog

I only buy guitars where the bone used to make the saddle and nut was obtained from an animal hunted, killed and chopped up by the luthier him/herself.

How about if I tapped a eucalyptus tree to make the rubber that cushions my screwdriver?

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

I should raise my prices? My survival is not currently threatened at the present level. . . Lacquer is about 5 to 8 hours of labor, and my current oil varnish finsh is about 20 of the 150 hours my guitars take. When I shifted to 100% varnish finished guitars, about 15 years ago, I raised my base price $500 to cover the difference.

So, 20 minus 5 is... and $500 divided by 15 gives me... multiply that by 5... does this mean I can send you a guitar to spray lacquer, and be billed time and materials?

[jessupe]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

How about if I tapped a eucalyptus tree to make the rubber that cushions my screwdriver?

not bad, of course we're assuming you forged the metal from ore you gathered yourself, fired in a handmade forge made from locally collected mud, excuse me soil, and that your hammer was a rock fashioned to a stick gnawed off a tree by a coastal beaver species that is of course, extremely rare

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by jessupe

not bad, of course we're assuming you forged the metal from ore you gathered yourself, fired in a handmade forge made from locally collected mud, excuse me soil, and that your hammer was a rock fashioned to a stick gnawed off a tree by a coastal beaver species that is of course, extremely rare

Nah, I farmed out that part of the job!

[jessupe]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

There are other reasons luthiers farm out finishing work. It wasn't that long ago that people would just stick a fan on a window and begin spraying. Today's regulations (thank God) require compliant spray booth with filtration, as well as proper safety gear; I would bet this is a setup not many small builders have the luxury of having. Related to that is the cost of spray equipment - guns, hoses, compressors, the aforementioned spray booth. Even the cost of the additional space necessary, or whether it is available, should be factored in. Finally there is the issue of health and safety. Probably the largest concern for me. Even with a respirator, and Tyvek suit, I still can smell the stuff on me. I was a bit more carefree spraying when I was younger. A lot more careful nowadays.

Yes, there's lots in your post, first understanding the solvents you are using and the basic, are these just bad for me, or are they bad for me AND the local environment?. I'm all for regulations, particularly for petro based voc solvents. I primarily only use alc,water, or turpentine as solvents, and I never spray and am very careful with any waste products I might create. Fortunately these are "green" solvents that primarily only have adverse effects to the user. Spraying ANY petro based solvents such as lacquer thinner based coatings, Stoddard solvent based polyurethane coatings can have adverse effects to the environment as a whole and I am very much for regulations, unfortunately the laws dictating ethonol are much more connected to antiquated alc tax laws.....at any rate, even "green" solvents should be handled carefully and as much protection as possible should be worn. AND don't let "water base" fool you into thinking that these are products that do not require protection. Isocyante, Carbodomide, Poly functional Azridine , NMP and glycol esthers ARE NOT happy earth/user friendly products where one can throw caution to the wind

I have years in the construction/finish industry and have always championed "green coatings" and am all to aware of the dangers of occupational exposure and could EASILY see how someone who reached a level of success would want out of that aspect of the work.

I think its super important for guys that have been at it for a long time to push and promote safe use of finishes to younger guys coming up or novice makers/finishers who are just starting out, be it as a hobby or a profession.