EIR VS Exotic/Expensive Rosewood for Custom Build

[iim7V7IM7]

A couple thoughts from a player, non-luthier.

I consider East Indian Rosewood (EIR) a moderate density rosewood with relatively low stiffness (see the figure below). Many of the more exotic tonewoods that you see not only look exotic to your eye, but have different mechanical properties in terms of their density and stiffness. I won't get into how they sound because many can be used to make great sounding guitars depending on the goal for the instrument. I listed 7 general groupings based upon 9 theoretical categories below. Given the intra-species variability an individual set can go up or down a category, but on average they fall into these groupings by properties for a given thickness.

What this chart doesn't show is how density or stiffness can be altered by a builder through thinning of the plates or by bracing (within limits). Nor does it consider differences in how efficiently sound propagates through the wood (damping). I personally believe a good set of EIR in the right hands can be made into a superlative guitar. I see exotic woods used all too often that are significantly rift sawn or flat sawn. Given a choice between a well quartered set of EIR vs. a poorly cut exotic, I personally would opt for EIR. But given the availability of well quartered exotic sets with differing properties I prefer the unique aesthetics and to explore the opportunity of the sonic colors of the road less traveled.

[Sage97]

Originally Posted by dbradfie

Maybe another way of putting it is; do you really need to pay an up charge for a beautiful piece of wood, if your main goal is to have the best sounding guitar possible?

Justifying the upcharge for exotic tonewoods is definitely a personal choice. Some see its worth, others don't. I do think one of the main reasons why custom builds exist is the demand by guitar players/owners for great sounding guitars made from unique/interesting/special/exotic looking tonewoods.

[J-F C]

Originally Posted by Sage97

Justifying the upcharge for exotic tonewoods is definitely a personal choice. Some see its worth, others don't. I do think one of the main reasons why custom builds exist is the demand by guitar players/owners for great sounding guitars made from unique/interesting/special/exotic looking tonewoods.

That sums it up for me. Totally agree. True Things are not always complicated.

JF

[lizzard]

MY current fave is Honduran HOG and Englemann. Not exactly exotic - exquisite (to my ear) none-the-less.

[theEdwinson]

No equivocation here. I am an unabashed proponent of East Indian Rosewood. I have been a bit of a connoisseur of D. Latifolia. I love the rich, dark, purple-black stuff, well dried and seasoned. I am always looking for chances to score another set of beautiful, pretty-high-Q wood for mmm, around a hundred twenty bucks. Well, yeah, I'll use it!

I can well imagine a hypothetical scenario where Indian Rosewood is nearly extinct, and very expensive- just as Brazilian is- scarce, very expensive, and the scarcer it gets, the higher the demand... In that scene, people would gladly be paying exorbitant amounts for medium grade sets of EIR.

What I'm saying is, good quality Indian merits high grades in every category. I've run across some sets of EIR that would win or match in any Rosewood shoot-out. I've made some great guitars with it.

Too bad nobody thought to hype EIR the way Brazilian has been. If EIR had a good PR machine behind it, it would be the plus ultra tonewood. Problem is, people don't tend to feel that fanatical about something that is still so...plentiful, that it is wrongly thought of as "common".

As with any tonewood, of course there's going to be a lot of variation in any given species, because of a lot of different factors. So keep your eyes, ears, and mind open to the possibility that there are some very beautiful and high Q sets of East Indian Rosewood to be found abundantly and shared with your build client!

BTW, I am soon starting a Consort 000 Venetian, with EIR, and a nice Adi top. I'm really excited by this upcoming build, because EIR/Adi is a sure win, perfect woods for a LIVE guitar.

[billgennaro]

This has been a good thread and one that I have enjoyed reading all the responses to. To me it depends on the builder. If I'm having James Olson or Kevin Ryan build me a guitar I'd be 'leaning' towards EIR. One of the absolute best guitars I've ever played was an EIR Kim Walker 000-12. However, I can also say that I've played some Walker BRW instruments that were every bit as good, if not better. If I were ordering a Somogyi, Traugott, or Franklin I think I'd be 'leaning' toward BRW. I've played two Bruce Sexauer builds made with BRW and thought them both to be superlative. On the other hand, I played two OM's by Laurent Brondel, one with BRW back/sides and one with EIR. I liked the EIR instrument quite a bit better. So who knows?

We've heard a few luthiers on this thread say they feel EIR can sound a bit muffled in the low end. I have certainly experienced this with many such guitars and, by and large, that is the same 'general' conclusion that I have come to as well. But it's only a general conclusion. Each builder and guitar should be considered individually.

For my part I own, what I consider to be, four of the best sounding instruments I have every played. None of them are built with EIR (two BRW, one MadRose, one African Blackwood). However, the aforementioned EIR Kim Walker 000-12 would easily hold its own against any instrument in my little stable (I should've bought that guitar).

Again, good thread.

[jperryrocks]

Is there much difference between East and North Indian? I'm going with north Indian for my latest build. North Indian seems to have a more medium brown color and not as dark as East Indian. But don't know about stiffness qualities.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by stringjunky

Yes, I think being able to distinguish B&S woods sonically in built guitar is mostly the domain of of the seasoned luthier who knows what s/he is listening for. Wouldn't stop me buying, say 'The Tree' though, but it would be because I like the look.

You have dear taste in guitars and embellishments but it's good you don't delude yourself what you are actually getting and don't try to justify stuff other than that you like it or don't like it. That's cool.

When something is particularly expensive (or inexpensive), opinions are polarized as people find all kinds of reasons to promote or dismiss that option.

Of course, tonewoods are all different -- and to a lesser extent, every individual guitar is different. Assuming that the decision is based on sound and sound alone, what's the point of paying thousands for a difference that is so insignificant that there is no consensus among master luthiers? What's the point of paying thousands for a difference that simply cannot be heard in an actual musical context?

Besides, when is the last time that you heard an actual musician stating that they must have their Brazilian because of all the so called virtues that guitar nerds on forums are so fond about? I'm sure there are some but I honestly can't think of anyone right off the bat.

I surely enjoy my BRW guitars and encourage others to go for it if they like the idea and can afford it. Otherwise in a blind test I would bet any amount of money that no expert could consistently and accurately guess whether the guitar that's in their hands is made with BRW or IRW.

[ukejon]

Originally Posted by Mark Hatcher

Yes, EIR definitely holds it's own. Some of the best sounding guitars I have ever made (imho) were EIR with cedar tops. I'm not sure what you mean exactly by "that nice reverby" sound. If you mean a hard rosewood sound vs a soft mahogany type sound, then yes, it's in there!
There are plenty around to test out

Mark

That's what I like to hear!

Regarding EIR, I love the look of dark straight grain backs and sides.

[ukejon]

Originally Posted by JoeCharter

When something is particularly expensive (or inexpensive), opinions are polarized as people find all kinds of reasons to promote or dismiss that option.

Of course, tonewoods are all different -- and to a lesser extent, every individual guitar is different. Assuming that the decision is based on sound and sound alone, what's the point of paying thousands for a difference that is so insignificant that there is no consensus among master luthiers? What's the point of paying thousands for a difference that simply cannot be heard in an actual musical context?

Besides, when is the last time that you heard an actual musician stating that they must have their Brazilian because of all the so called virtues that guitar nerds on forums are so fond about? I'm sure there are some but I honestly can't think of anyone right off the bat.

I surely enjoy my BRW guitars and encourage others to go for it if they like the idea and can afford it. Otherwise in a blind test I would bet any amount of money that no expert could consistently and accurately guess whether the guitar that's in their hands is made with BRW or IRW.

Good points, Mau. Raises the whole question about the degree to which what we say we hear is possibly affected by what we see. I might be more inclined to use the standard set of Brazilian descriptors if I already know that is the back and sides on the guitar. Same with EIR, and many other woods. Moreover there are so many factors and variables that shape the sound of a guitar that talking about the general tonal merits of wood X vs. wood Y could well be a moot point....or close to it.

And great points also in Larry's post below, especially this:

For what it's worth, I've let the builders choose my woods after hearing/knowing my style, discussing my use of my guitars, and what sound I'm after rather than telling them what woods they have to use.

[ljguitar]

Hi all…
For what it's worth, I've let the builders choose my woods after hearing/knowing my style, discussing my use of my guitars, and what sound I'm after rather than telling them what woods they have to use.

After 23 years with my Olson Dreadnought - EIR/Cedar, I'd disagree about the dismissive comments concerning East Indian Rosewood of "not interesting", "muddy", "dull" and "not warm", at least as they pertain to not only my guitar, but about a dozen other Olson guitars I've played in SJ and Dreadnought, and one Jumbo all of which were built of EIR/Cedar.

I'm sure the builder factors into the equation. I played my first Olson at Jim's shop for a long time (about an hour altogether), and it was EIR/Cedar. Three years later when I commissioned one, I wanted it to be 'just like that one', and it turned out even better than 'that one'.

Perhaps some builders click with certain woods better than others.

If I were commissioning a guitar, I'd certainly want to be sure the builder was invested in extracting the best sound possible from the woods used, and experienced enough to find out what I'm looking for and target those characteristics/properties.

If a builder is biased against certain woods, or partial to a particular non-traditional wood, I'd sure want to be sure they know what I'm looking for, what my use of my guitars is, and have wood and a design in mind with which he/she will be able to accomplish what I'm looking for whether it matches my ideas about wood combinations or not. And if they don't think my choices will be the right fit, I want them to have the courage to tell me so.

After all, I'm just the player, and they are the builder. I expect them to be smart enough to choose the combinations which will emphasize my strengths and fit my music.

I see a lot of really beautiful custom builds go up for sale within a year of purchase because the buyer dictated the woods rather than looking for a good 'fit' of build/design and their personal playing style.

Just my few cents worth…

[lizzard]

I ask any of the builders following this thread (or not).

Are you (for the sake of "science") willing to build 2 guitars, as identical as possible in every way - one EIR and one BRW. Post sound samples of the same piece by the same player recorded as dry as possible and in the same way.

It would be awesome if the tops were split from adjacent cuts of the same piece of whatever you like. Don't tell us.

Put up a blind poll and see what people can hear? People will no doubt love both for different reasons so they are sure to sell quickly AND you get invaluable promotion.

Anyone up to the "challenge?"

Chris

[SJ VanSandt]

I think any of the luthiers would be happy to do it - if you promise to buy both of the guitars.

[runamuck]

Originally Posted by JoeCharter

....... in a blind test I would bet any amount of money that no expert could consistently and accurately guess whether the guitar that's in their hands is made with BRW or IRW.

I completely agree based on my experience of just that.
Looking forward to see you too, Mau.

[printer2]

Originally Posted by lizzard

I ask any of the builders following this thread (or not).

Are you (for the sake of "science") willing to build 2 guitars, as identical as possible in every way - one EIR and one BRW. Post sound samples of the same piece by the same player recorded as dry as possible and in the same way.

It would be awesome if the tops were split from adjacent cuts of the same piece of whatever you like. Don't tell us.
Chris

The tops would be the easy part, put in an order from a supplier for two tops cut from wood side by side. But the backs are a different story. To do a test of apples to apples you would need to get both sets with the same density and stiffness. If the two are different and the luthier makes the plates the same thickness the backs will have a different resonant frequency. If the luthier adjusts the thickness of one to produce the same resonant frequency as the other the dampening might be different between the two.

So this would be a case for the two woods giving a different texture to the sound. But as two samples of the same tree can vary in density and stiffness you building two guitars with them can give you two different responses. Wood not being a homogeneous material may make the test a little more tricky to perform than just asking that two guitars with two different species be built.