Help Me Grade This Macassar Ebony & Indian Rosewood

[doogypep]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

Also, the ebony has a high percentage of sap wood. I have often seen ebony sapwood which has less than half the integrity of the adjoining heartwood, and it sometimes separates cleanly right on the margin between them.

Yet more; the ebony is only flat in the middle, the rest is rift, or oblique to the rings, and so the inevitable humidity driven expansion/contraction will cause unequal movement which means the shape will distort, or at best harbor asymmetric stresses which are the enemy of tone, which is the product of integrity and relaxation. If that seems off the wall, consider you own guitar playing (or anybody elses) as a supporting example.

I see master. thank you for your great advice.
but i just want to know how many wood we lost if we only focus to the quater sawn part. we may cant find ebony any more some day.

[doogypep]

Originally Posted by dosland

FYI, of the people who have replied thus far, Bruce Sexauer and Howard Klepper (at least) are among the most highly-regarded luthiers around. "Real luthiers," in your words.

i cant understand all of your words.

absolutely yes.
and i'm not a luthier. i just try to say how many wood we lost.
i though as i'm building it for me. not for sale like a hi-end guitar.
i dont have enough money to buy a quater sawn. so i'll fun with the wood i have and try to fix the problem that your most highly-regarded REAL LUTHIERS dont like them. i hope you understand what i try to say.

[Pippin]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

Don't get me started on the importance of "tapping", which is misunderstood by nearly everyone IMO.

I would love to know more, please

Pippin

[Bruce Sexauer]

Originally Posted by doogypep

I see master. thank you for your great advice.
but i just want to know how many wood we lost if we only focus to the quater sawn part. we may cant find ebony any more some day.

Not all wood is appropriate for use in guitars. In fact very little wood is appropriate for guitars. Understanding the differences is complex, and just because one is able to accomplish the building itself does not mean they have acquired to knowledge to tell the good from the bad, the adequate from the inadequate, let alone the adequate from the stellar.

For many years, probably hundreds, luthiers have relied on the supply houses and wood cutters to supply them with pre-graded materials. And then the luthiers regrade the supplied materials, and in some cases develop their own skills to go into the various forests and perhaps even select their own trees and do their own milling. In this forum, John Arnold and I seem to have this level of dedication in common.

The modern problem is the the supply houses can, in most cases, no longer be relied upon to supply the traditionally appropriate material, and as a result many modern builders have not learned what they might have from the supplied materials. This is complicated by, first, the fact that many builders do not use edge tools much, but rely on thickness sanders and routers, which supply little information about the grain structure and fiber integrity. And, second, as we burn through the old growth wood there are less big trees and there is financial pressure to mill for yield ahead of quality. The stellar material is still available, but it is relatively expensive.

Those of us who both know the differences AND the reasons why they are important have become relatively rare ourselves. I admit to being interested in communicating the knowledge I have accumulated with the rest of the lutherie community as well as the buying public because it is the right thing to do.

Some will find the information at odds with what they think, and may argue against it or otherwise defend their position, but I assure you nothing we of skill and knowledge have said so far in this thread is off base, and critics would be very wise to give thought to the open door. To me it appears that there is some risk of this important knowledge being lost in our subculture.

[CoolerKing]

Originally Posted by dosland

FYI, of the people who have replied thus far, Bruce Sexauer and Howard Klepper (at least) are among the most highly-regarded luthiers around. "Real luthiers," in your words.

I agree. I'm not brown nosing but getting advice on this forum is like curbsiding Shakespeare on a term paper.

[iim7V7IM7]

A couple thoughts...

I think the participating luthiers have provided you with sound advise.

Players can frequently be attracted to ornate figuring and in many cases to ignore the cut characteristics of the hardwoods. Good luthier's while interested in unusual figure only begin to consider a set once they have evaluate:

1. The set's cut with respect to being on quarter to understand its long-term stability when exposed to cyclical humidity cycles.
   
2. Its density, its long-grain and short-grain stiffness and its acoustic "liveliness" when evaluated by them in person.
   
3. The provenance of the wood and they understand its moisture content and "how" (kiln dried, naturally dried etc.) and how long it has been seasoned.
   
4. Their experience working with the wood to understand how to best work with it when plate thicknessing, bending, selecting adhesives or pore filling.

My advise is work closely with your luthier and let them provide you with options based on their understanding of your goals for the instrument. Unfortunately, premium woods seem to be becoming more scarce and many of the sets seen for sale at the supply houses are in many cases are sub-optimal. Fortunately, buying premium woods is an addiction to many luthiers so they have accumulated woodlocker "stashes" greater than they will ever likely build with (they can't help themselves, they're addicted ).

The reason that you will pay a premium over the supply house prices from a luthier is that 1) they have tied up their money in wood for many years (somes decades!), 2) they have personally selected it based on the above. So you are paying a premium for their expertise and the time value of money.

My $.02

[doogypep]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

Not all wood is appropriate for use in guitars. In fact very little wood is appropriate for guitars. Understanding the differences is complex, and just because one is able to accomplish the building itself does not mean they have acquired to knowledge to tell the good from the bad, the adequate from the inadequate, let alone the adequate from the stellar.

For many years, probably hundreds, luthiers have relied on the supply houses and wood cutters to supply them with pre-graded materials. And then the luthiers regrade the supplied materials, and in some cases develop their own skills to go into the various forests and perhaps even select their own trees and do their own milling. In this forum, John Arnold and I seem to have this level of dedication in common.

The modern problem is the the supply houses can, in most cases, no longer be relied upon to supply the traditionally appropriate material, and as a result many modern builders have not learned what they might have from the supplied materials. This is complicated by, first, the fact that many builders do not use edge tools much, but rely on thickness sanders and routers, which supply little information about the grain structure and fiber integrity. And, second, as we burn through the old growth wood there are less big trees and there is financial pressure to mill for yield ahead of quality. The stellar material is still available, but it is relatively expensive.

Those of us who both know the differences AND the reasons why they are important have become relatively rare ourselves. I admit to being interested in communicating the knowledge I have accumulated with the rest of the lutherie community as well as the buying public because it is the right thing to do.

Some will find the information at odds with what they think, and may argue against it or otherwise defend their position, but I assure you nothing we of skill and knowledge have said so far in this thread is off base, and critics would be very wise to give thought to the open door. To me it appears that there is some risk of this important knowledge being lost in our subculture.

every thing clear for me. and i did not try to touch that word.
again, im not a luthier.in past i hope i can be someday, but for now i dont want to be. i just try to say what i though.
and absolutely yes, your skill is very high and my skill is zero.
maybe i should find and read more about the bolt-on or dove tail neck joint again.

[Bruce Sexauer]

Originally Posted by doogypep

every thing clear for me. and i did not try to touch that word.
again, im not a luthier.in past i hope i can be someday, but for now i dont want to be. i just try to say what i though.
and absolutely yes, your skill is very high and my skill is zero.
maybe i should find and read more about the bolt-on or dove tail neck joint again.

Suddenly you are looking clever to me. In a good way. Language can be such a barrier!

[dekutree64]

Originally Posted by doogypep

I see master. thank you for your great advice.
but i just want to know how many wood we lost if we only focus to the quater sawn part. we may cant find ebony any more some day.

This is true, but in my opinion it's better to choose a different wood than to use flatsawn ebony. Use the remaining trees for fingerboards. Or leave them alive for a hundred more years and maybe they'll be big enough for quartersawn backs

Some woods are ok flatsawn. Honduran mahogany is one. Cocobolo, Brazilian rosewood, and African blackwood all have low flatsawn expansion, but they are more brittle than mahogany so they still might crack when dry. Especially Brazilian. But if you brace them in low humidity, they will tolerate a large range. The trouble with ebony is that if you brace in low humidity, then it will swell excessively in high humidity and the glue joints can fail.

http://www.wood-database.com/ has humidity numbers for many species. Oak is another like ebony with very high flatsawn expansion. But fortunately there are plenty of large oak trees to get quartersawn wood.

[doogypep]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

Suddenly you are looking clever to me. In a good way. Language can be such a barrier!

you make me lough a lot. but the bolt on or dove tail is more fun.