Need advice editing fingerstyle acoustic guitar

[cedwin]

Hi,

I have always wondered how to get a real full bodied, deep bass sound when recording the acoustic guitar. I can't seem to get a full sound when recording: for example Tommy Emmanuel's YouTube videos.

I use 2 Rode NT5 mics and Focusrite audio interface. I recently saw in James Bartholomew's page that he's offering to mix your recording for a fee, and I heard the before and after sample mixing, the bass seems to be so deep and clear yet not boomy. You can listen it here: http://jamesbartholomewmusic.co.uk/mixing/

Any thoughts or suggestions would be much appreciated!!!

Edwin

www.youtube.com/cedwin

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by cedwin

Hi,

I have always wondered how to get a real full bodied, deep bass sound when recording the acoustic guitar. I can't seem to get a full sound when recording: for example Tommy Emmanuel's YouTube videos.

I use 2 Rode NT5 mics and Focusrite audio interface. I recently saw in James Bartholomew's page that he's offering to mix your recording for a fee, and I heard the before and after sample mixing, the bass seems to be so deep and clear yet not boomy. You can listen it here: http://jamesbartholomewmusic.co.uk/mixing/

Any thoughts or suggestions would be much appreciated!!!

Edwin

www.youtube.com/cedwin

After versions of tunes from Bartholomew have:
1. High pass filter (and perhaps some other equalization tweaks).
2. Have boosted volume
3. Have reverb added

This you can do yourself providing you have some decent reverbs to use.

I will post an example later when I have more time.

[cedwin]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

After versions of tunes from Bartholomew have:
1. Low pass filter (and perhaps some other equalization tweaks).
2. Have boosted volume
3. Have reverb added

This you can do yourself providing you have some decent reverbs to use.

I will post an example later when I have more time.

Hi thanks! Do you mean a high pass filter instead? I usually have a hpf to cut off frequencies below around 100hz. Does reverb improve the bass of the guitar? I use Logic Pro X and what reverb do you recommend? I just ordered a Focusrite Clarett 4pre and hoping to try out the Focusrite plugins as well.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by cedwin

Hi thanks! Do you mean a high pass filter instead? I usually have a hpf to cut off frequencies below around 100hz. Does reverb improve the bass of the guitar? I use Logic Pro X and what reverb do you recommend? I just ordered a Focusrite Clarett 4pre and hoping to try out the Focusrite plugins as well.

Correct. Post edited. Actually that is what I was doing this morning but ran out of time to finish up and post it.
High pass around 50 Hz, 5 dB volume increase, plus reverb and it sounded good. Hardest part is deciding on the reverb.
A number of good reverbs out there. I have VST plugins via Lexicon, Waves, Aether, Voxengo, Big Sir.

[cedwin]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Correct. Post edited. Actually that is what I was doing this morning but ran out of time to finish up and post it.
High pass around 50 Hz, 5 dB volume increase, plus reverb and it sounded good. Hardest part is deciding on the reverb.
A number of good reverbs out there. I have VST plugins via Lexicon, Waves, Aether, Voxengo, Big Sir.

Which reverb plugin do you recommend for fingerstyle guitar? Like Tommy E type fingerstyle. Do you use the reverb from Logic Pro?

How about compression?

I'll try playing around with reverb and see what I can get. Any recommended settings? Like how many % wet/dry, etc. I'm pretty clueless about all the different settings and which to use.

[DupleMeter]

it really depends on the specific recording, but some general thoughts are:

EQ:
As was mentioned a high pass filter (HPF) is always a good idea (or at least a low shelving EQ). I always tune the low EQ to cut out all the energy stealing unused low frequencies. A standard tuned guitar has a low E string that rings around 82Hz (82.41Hz of you want to get specific). So A HPF at 75Hz or so would really tighten the lowest notes on the recording.

Also, a slight boost in the 125-150Hz range with a wide Q really helps get the low end through on smaller speakers/iGadgets/headphones. Maybe 2dB. You don't need a lot.

Lastly, I always do a slight EQ dip around 800Hz (sweep to find the exact "boxy"/cardboard sounding frequencies) and cut about 3dB with a wide Q. This helps cleanup the low end and add sparkle on the high end.

Compression:
Too much compression sounds bad to my ears. I tend to use 2 compressors each doing maybe 2dB of gain reduction.

I always start with an LA2A style compressor and use it to lightly compress the signal. If I used 2 mics, I put one on each channel and set them independently so they are both achieving very light compression.

I then like to use a multiband compressor to help keep things tight & focused. I tend to mix in Digital Performer and actually use the Dynamic EQ to cover both EQ & multiband compression jobs at once. It's truly an incredible mixing tool.

If I recorded the guitar using multiple mics I would use the multiband on a aux buss that was fed from all the guitar sources. This helps glue them together a little.

Reverb:
Things always sound better in a space. I use a convolution reverb. Sometimes a real space (like a hall), but I often opt for a good sounding plate reverb. I just really like what a good plate reverb does to a guitar (or voice).

EQ your reverb. High pass anywhere from 250-400Hz and Low Pass anywhere from 4-6k.

I usually add a little pre-delay to the 'verb as well. Maybe 30ms. Not a lot. There's a rule of thumb that reflections (reverbs/echoes/delays) happening within 40ms of the originating sound source are perceived as part of the same sound. I forget the name of the theory...Learned it in my engineering classes at music school. The idea is that if the pre-delay gets too long the reverb will start to become it's own sound and that plays with our perception of the sound.

Again, these are just general ideas to begin with. Use them as a springboard.

HTH

[rick-slo]

OK I tweaked the unmixed clip of Insignificant - James Bartholomew.
The beginning of the clip three times and the fourth time the entire clip
1. unmixed
2. plus increased volume
3. plus high pass filter
4. plus reverb
As Steve mentioned you could do more (and drive yourself nuts doing so ).
The better the raw recording the less work you will need to do post recording.

Biggest variable for me is usually what reverb(s) to use and how you use it.
On my personal recordings I usually use a lot less reverb than I did here.

http://dcoombsguitar.com/Misc/AGFDemoMarch2016.wav

[cedwin]

Oh wow thanks! I need to slow down and slowly understand your tips.

One thing I haven't used is the multiband compressor. Probably need to learn how to use that too.

I have a question: how do you EQ and pre-delay the reverb? Do you just add in the EQ after you add the reverb?

Thanks!

[cedwin]

Thanks so much for that! It's amazing that just a simple tweak of EQ and reverb can add in so much. Do you just use one type of reverb in each track or can you use multiple ones?

I listened to James B's Insignificant (mixed) again and am I correct to say that he added in a lot of reverb, because at the end of the track, you could hear the bass ringing out really loudly (not sure how to describe it).

[tdq]

I'm completely out of my depth with the above comments - lots here to think about and try and I will be referring back to this thread the next time I sit down with a recording. So take the following from someone with only basic knowledge of recording:
But - is it only me, but I actually preferred the before clips on that website - the after clips were perhaps a little crisper but the reverb was way over the top for me and I found it distracting, and the bass was really boomy. Listening on my laptop with good headphones. I'm not saying this to be a troll but genuinely curious about the take of those with a more developed ear and technical knowledge.

[cedwin]

Originally Posted by tdq

I'm completely out of my depth with the above comments - lots here to think about and try and I will be referring back to this thread the next time I sit down with a recording. So take the following from someone with only basic knowledge of recording:
But - is it only me, but I actually preferred the before clips on that website - the after clips were perhaps a little crisper but the reverb was way over the top for me and I found it distracting, and the bass was really boomy. Listening on my laptop with good headphones. I'm not saying this to be a troll but genuinely curious about the take of those with a more developed ear and technical knowledge.

I was trying to find out how to get a deep bass like in that website that as my recording doesn't really justify the bass of my guitar. My ideal sound would be Tommy Emmanuel's recording, even the ones in his YouTube channel sounds so nice. I'm wandering if I could record with 2 mic, and mix in with the pickup from my guitar... that's why I got the Focusrite Clarett 4pre.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by tdq

I'm completely out of my depth with the above comments - lots here to think about and try and I will be referring back to this thread the next time I sit down with a recording. So take the following from someone with only basic knowledge of recording:
But - is it only me, but I actually preferred the before clips on that website - the after clips were perhaps a little crisper but the reverb was way over the top for me and I found it distracting, and the bass was really boomy. Listening on my laptop with good headphones. I'm not saying this to be a troll but genuinely curious about the take of those with a more developed ear and technical knowledge.

You like what you like.

Many of the things I see suggested for massaging audio tracks (not necessarily what's been presented here) are more applicable to fitting individual tracks into a multi-track edit. That's totally understandable, but if it's solo guitar or simpler edits with only a few instruments present I find less manipulation to be preferable. The secret is to get good initial tracking so it's not necessary to to a lot of editing, especially throwing more plug ins on the track.

As far as verbs go, my preference is to use them in a way that you have to listen closely to tell there's any on the track. If I have to stop playback and listen for trails I know I'm in the ball park.

Start with a cleanly recorded track captured in a good space using good mic technique and you're 90% there.

[Ty Ford]

It's very easy to get enamored by effects to the degree that you obliterate the sound of the instrument.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by cedwin

I was trying to find out how to get a deep bass like in that website that as my recording doesn't really justify the bass of my guitar.

I assume you noticed he's using an alternate tuning? He hits a low C on the opening of that first tune. The guitar almost sounds like a baritone. I'd say he's getting that deep sound from the guitar to start with, and then recording it fairly well. It's not just a recording technique.

[cedwin]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I assume you noticed he's using an alternate tuning? He hits a low C on the opening of that first tune. The guitar almost sounds like a baritone. I'd say he's getting that deep sound from the guitar to start with, and then recording it fairly well. It's not just a recording technique.

Ah, I didn't notice that its on an alternate tuning.

Anyway, what I'm trying to learn is a good editing technique (assuming I'm recording properly. I usually aim one NT5 mic around 14 fret, and another on the lower bout of the guitar, facing the bridge). The room I'm recording in is another different story, which I still have to learn.

When I listen to Tommy Emmanuel's recording, his guitar tone is very sweet, bass is meaty... Do you think if I add in a guitar pickup with the 2 microphones it will further enhance the sound?