Ok, now you've got my attention

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by JanVigne

Tony, thanks for the information but I am seeing a direction that doesn't appear to be where I want to go. You mention your interest in either chord melody or fingerstyle playing. That sets up a distinction in my mind which says to me, if you want to learn how to slow smoke a brisket using pecan wood, you don't want to take lessons from a Vietnamese haute cuisine chef. Not that the chef doesn't know how to smoke a brisket but that there are likely better instructors for the job.

You also mention an approach which has you grabbing the first chord, then the second, third and so on. This sounds more geared towards a jazzier style than I play.



My problem is; I can play a tune like "Freight Train" a dozen times in the AM with sheet music. Go away for the day and I come back in the PM without sheet music and I couldn't play through the song.

IMO a song such as "Freight Train" doesn't work with reharmonization as well as something like "Take the A Train". I know the chord progression to "Freight Train" and I know the basic melody. I can play something sort of like "Freight Train" without sheet music but if you put a fake book in front of me with "Freight Train", what would come out might not really be what most people recognize as that song. Not that the song can't be embellished or altered - nothing is sacred in that respect - but that I would, by the end of the song, be playing what I was hearing in my head vs what Ms. Cotton wrote and intended.

I'm not necessarily looking to play what someone else has arranged. But I am interested in developing a greater library of recognizable songs I can play whenever I pick up my guitar. I'm not a performer, I play for my own entertainment. However, if someone said, "Play a song for me", I'd play a something in E and then something in G and then one in A and they wouldn't really be "songs", they'd be me playing around in those various keys.

That's what led me to lay the instrument down after a few months of recovery from my elbow surgery. I realized everything I was playing was sounding very much alike because I was relying very heavily on similar patterns and repeated licks which didn't stress my arm. We have a performer here in town who plays everything in "E" and simply uses a capo to adjust keys. The adjustment seems superfluous since he's always playing the same patterns and the same licks, just on different frets dictated by the position of the capo. In the end R. Johnson ends up sounding a lot like Muddy Waters which can sound a lot like Peter, Paul and Mary and Gordon Lightfoot. Too much so for my taste. But that's where I saw myself heading after my surgery.

It doesn't sound though like this approach you mentioned is geared towards my end goals. Can "The Formula" work for a song like "Freight Train"? If so, can you elaborate a bit on the process?

Chord melody can be done fingerstyle. Listen to Earl Klugh or Martin Taylor or Charlie Byrd for some examples, so I did not intend to divide these. However, Tomi focuses on pop and rock tunes. he likes that style of music and I suspect that his potential market for students is largely interested in those styles.

In his "Chord Melody Assembly Line" book/DVD, Conti uses Oh Suzanna as the vehicle for generating a chord melody throughout the book and then applies all the pieces of the book to Danny Boy at the end. Chord melody can be applied to darn near anything. "The Formula" shows how to create your own harmony under any melody as a follow on to "Assembly Line", and uses "Dany Boy" again to illustrate. an entire tune. Throughout the book, he uses snippets of melodies from standards.

To me, there are all manner of skills that fit together and each of us will want different combinations to make our unique interpretations of tunes or our own music. For me, what Conti teaches, what Tomi Paldanius teaches, and what Martin Taylor teaches are the skill sets I am working on bringing together. So in my mind, they aren't separate, but they come from separate sources.

I think that you sound as if you have trouble memorizing note for note an arrangement of a tune. So do I and probably many others here. What Tomi teaches is not to memorize an arrangement note for note, but to learn how the tune is put together, which is far easier to memorize and do your own arrangement on the spot rather than memorizing one specific way to play it. That seems much more natural and musical to me regardless of whether you want to lay jazz or folk or whatever.

Tony

[JanVigne]

"This point doesn't get much clearer than this demonstration of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pidokakU4I "



Certainly points up why I don't know the names of most of those groups. And why I listen to music created long before those groups became popular. What I listen to - and play - is blues music that finds four chords to be one too many. Thanks though.

[JanVigne]

"And music tends to be really easy to remember."




Easy for you to say.



"I'm at a point where, when I get stuck - and it does happen sometimes - what I do is remind myself 'how does this song go next?' and if I can do that, if I can remember what it sounds like, my fingers will know where to go.

But it all flows from the ear. That is how you experience music, so that is how you have to remember it."




Yep, that's my problem, how's this go next? And then my fingers take off on their own, doing things that aren't in the original song.

[JanVigne]

"The one thing that nobody has mentioned yet, and it's a significant issue, is age. Frankly, the farther you get past 55-years-old, the effects of age start becoming a bigger and bigger problem. The issue isn't with old memories; they appear to stay intact. The problem is new memories, hence, learning. The old-dogs/new-tricks parable grows more and more true with each passing year.

One technique in forming new memories is to hook new data to old knowledge. For example, the CAGED system for learning chords up the neck hooks new data (chord shapes up the neck) to existing knowledge (chord shapes at the nut) in a very logical manner. Along the way you also accidentally learn notes up the neck, because you learn how chord roots tie together. Contrast this with a system that has you memorizing the fretboard first, and then building chords off the location of each of the notes. This method may work for young players, who easily memorize unrelated facts, but it is unlikely to work for older players.

Similarly, if 'Freight Train' is the first thing you've tried to learn in finger-style, and you've tried to memorize it as a series of notes, you'll have a terrible time. You have to approach a tune like that by hooking the new technique (a finger roll pattern) to something you already know (root chords). Once that's in place, you can begin to add the frills and melody notes that really define the tune. Each step along the way has to build systematically by hooking new learning to old knowledge. Younger players can learn things de novo; older players can't.

The one problem that emerges is when the established knowledge base is faulty. It takes more data to change an opinion than to reinforce one, so adults have a very difficult time shaking ingrained concepts. Trying to teach them something new when they have the wrong conceptual understanding is very difficult."





I certainly don't disagree with anything you've posted there. I'll be 61 at the end of September. The only thing I would add is this is a problem I have had since I first started to play guitar when I was 12 years old. If I had to place a number 1 to 10 on how well I do now vs when I was a newbie player, I would say I actually have a slightly better memory for how to play a specific song now. When I was young my instructor was playing in a Western music band and he played Cowboy chords and a few single note lines. There was no theory involved in my early learning process, which eventually became me picking up books (mostly classical techniques and early '60's Mel Bay) and teaching myself what I thought I needed to know. Since I didn't know what I needed to know, I learned how to play songs note by note - with sheet music.

Now I have access to the internet and I understand the importance of musical knowledge. That helps tremendously when it comes to recognizing where a song is going to head. And my ear is better since I now understand how a scale in a key should sound and why I should have that ear training. I didn't get any of that when I was first taking lessons. CAGED has shown up since I took lessons. So chord forms are more understandable today.

But - and to me it's a big "but" - I don't sing, I play for my own entertainment. While I know all these things today, my old classical book had three pages of finger patterns to learn, 45 all total. Today I talk to instructors and they tell me they can teach me three or four finger patterns. Got that already. It's the translating of all those patterns into a song that gets from point A to point B and doesn't sound pretty much like every other A to B song I play that is giving me trouble. To take those patterns and apply them to an individual song that is recognizable as "a song" is something that just isn't happening - unless I have some sheet music in front of me.





"Instead, we can better remember song structure and "canned" chord progressions such as I IV V I or iii vi ii V 1, etc. Remember the tune in broad strokes like this rather than in intricate details. Your musical vocabulary can fill in the details differently every time you play the tune. That is really at the heart of this thing."


Yep! My fingers take off and sooner or later I may have some recognizable pieces of the original song that I find working their way back in. But, overall, what you'd hear is sort of like the guy the band let's stand off in the corner. He's playing something that doesn't stand out as not being a part of the song but he's also not exactly playing what the rest of the band is playing.

[JanVigne]

"In his 'Chord Melody Assembly Line' book/DVD, Conti uses Oh Suzanna as the vehicle for generating a chord melody throughout the book ... "


This version just kills me ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei2PVpSKkF4

[JanVigne]

"I think that you sound as if you have trouble memorizing note for note an arrangement of a tune. So do I and probably many others here. What Tomi teaches is not to memorize an arrangement note for note, but to learn how the tune is put together, which is far easier to memorize and do your own arrangement on the spot rather than memorizing one specific way to play it. That seems much more natural and musical to me regardless of whether you want to lay jazz or folk or whatever."



Note for note isn't how I play. Unless I'm trying to learn how to play something like R.Johnson/Blind Blake to learn how to play like R. Johnson or Blind Blake, it just doesn't work that way for me mentally. I think I've mentioned here before that I play like I drive. I like taking different routes to wherever I'm headed. Once I've seen that route and what's to notice along the way, I'll take another route the next time I head in the same direction.

Once I've got a song under my fingers - with sheet music - it begins to change as I play. Maybe that's really what I'm seeing as a problem, what is on paper isn't what I play all the time - unless the sheet music is in front of me and I make the effort to stay true to the tune. But I seem to drift so far away from what's on paper at times that the original song is no longer recognizable. That to me is a problem.

[AX17609]

Originally Posted by JanVigne

I think I've mentioned here before that I play like I drive. I like taking different routes to wherever I'm headed. Once I've seen that route and what's to notice along the way, I'll take another route the next time I head in the same direction.

Once I've got a song under my fingers - with sheet music - it begins to change as I play. Maybe that's really what I'm seeing as a problem, what is on paper isn't what I play all the time - unless the sheet music is in front of me and I make the effort to stay true to the tune. But I seem to drift so far away from what's on paper at times that the original song is no longer recognizable. That to me is a problem.

I know what you mean, but up to a point, that seems like a good thing to me. I like to learn several versions of the same tune, so that I have a number of routes to follow. So, when I play the same tune over and over, I subconsciously personalize it. I think you have to do that to 'own' it.

Sometimes, however, I inadvertently extract the very thing that made the song special in the first place. I know that with, say, Rev Gary Davis or Blind Blake there are certain style elements that if removed, take all the life out of a tune. So, I like personalizing a certain distance, but not too far. I have to keep reminding myself that there's no exam at the end of this. It's just a tune, and I'm carrying on a tradition as well as I can.

[JanVigne]

Sometimes, however, I inadvertently extract the very thing that made the song special in the first place."


Oh, I have a good time and since the music is just for myself it doesn't much matter whether I recognize what comes out at the end or not. It's just me exploring the sounds and rhythms I can create. And what I play this time through isn't likely to be a copy of what I'll play next time through. But every now and again someone says, "Play something", and I'm like " ... uhh ... yeah ... OK ... sure, do you like 'Oh, Susanna'?"

[AX17609]

Originally Posted by JanVigne

But every now and again someone says, "Play something", and I'm like " ... uhh ... yeah ... OK ... sure, do you like 'Oh, Susanna'?"

My least favorite question is "Can't you play something we all know?"

[JanVigne]

Yep, I feel like Tonto when they ask that. "What you mean 'we', Kimosabee?"

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by JanVigne

"In his 'Chord Melody Assembly Line' book/DVD, Conti uses Oh Suzanna as the vehicle for generating a chord melody throughout the book ... "


This version just kills me ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei2PVpSKkF4

It would have killed me too if I sat through the whole thing. I have to admit that it was unique if not noisy and overly distorted for my taste.

Conti probably uses that tune because it is not licensed, and neither is Danny Boy. In The Formula he uses snippets of melodies from standards, just 2 or 4 measures at most and then harmonizes them several different ways. Apparently, the law is such that if you use only a small part of a tune for illustrative purposes, it doesn't require a license and he is able t still get his points across. Conti does have something like 8 volumes of chord melody arrangements that are complete tunes and these are all properly licensed.

Tony

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by JanVigne

Sometimes, however, I inadvertently extract the very thing that made the song special in the first place."


Oh, I have a good time and since the music is just for myself it doesn't much matter whether I recognize what comes out at the end or not. It's just me exploring the sounds and rhythms I can create. And what I play this time through isn't likely to be a copy of what I'll play next time through. But every now and again someone says, "Play something", and I'm like " ... uhh ... yeah ... OK ... sure, do you like 'Oh, Susanna'?"

I am not sure I understand all of this, but I think that coming up with your own music would be a great thing to do. When playing for other people, it is reasonable to play stuff they can relate to. I am sure there are some who would like Oh Suzanna, though I would think more contemporary material stuff would go over much better. Oh Suzanna is a simple enough tune as a teaching vehicle for applying arranging techniques. Howard Morgan used it in an article in Fingerstyle magazine, for example and others have used for that purpose besides Conti and Howard Morgan.

Tony


Tony

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by AX17609

My least favorite question is "Can't you play something we all know?"

Why? When I played in a road band, our business was to entertain. That is what we got paid to do, so we played stuff people knew. If you are playing for yourself or just informally, I am sure it doesn't matter. But being able to play music that people know seems rather obvious to me. Of course, introducing people to quality new music is even better. I wouldn't consider just endlessly noodling or whipping out a few chords or riffs to be entertaining, but playing some complete idea of your own that makes musical sense could be interesting for listeners.

Tony

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by JanVigne

"I think that you sound as if you have trouble memorizing note for note an arrangement of a tune. So do I and probably many others here. What Tomi teaches is not to memorize an arrangement note for note, but to learn how the tune is put together, which is far easier to memorize and do your own arrangement on the spot rather than memorizing one specific way to play it. That seems much more natural and musical to me regardless of whether you want to lay jazz or folk or whatever."



Note for note isn't how I play. Unless I'm trying to learn how to play something like R.Johnson/Blind Blake to learn how to play like R. Johnson or Blind Blake, it just doesn't work that way for me mentally. I think I've mentioned here before that I play like I drive. I like taking different routes to wherever I'm headed. Once I've seen that route and what's to notice along the way, I'll take another route the next time I head in the same direction.

Once I've got a song under my fingers - with sheet music - it begins to change as I play. Maybe that's really what I'm seeing as a problem, what is on paper isn't what I play all the time - unless the sheet music is in front of me and I make the effort to stay true to the tune. But I seem to drift so far away from what's on paper at times that the original song is no longer recognizable. That to me is a problem.

I don't see that as a problem. If you can make the tune your own, why not? But if your intention is to play it exactly the same way and keep it true to what is written on a piece of paper, then yes, that can be a problem. It depends on what your intentions are.

Tony

[JanVigne]

This probably wouldn't be a big deal if I was always playing for someone else or if I could sing. I can't sing. I tried when I was in high school. The nuns needed a lead player for their musical. I said I couldn't sing but they said, "If you can't sing well, sing loud." I sang louder and they said, "Come with me." Into the cafeteria we went and they had me try a few different songs from the show. I didn't get the lead.

But if you're singing, most people aren't paying close attention to your playing. As long as I could return to the melody line every now and again, this probably would matter at all. I certainly don't mind creating my own patterns and chord shapes/positions when I play for myself. It just seems like after all this time I should be able to play a few songs for friends. Maybe I'm making too much of this.