P90s v HBs

[Dru Edwards]

A thread about P90s, how cool is that.

I have a Gibson Les Paul and an SG with P90s. I also have those same guitars with humbuckers. I'm a humbucker guy myself but those P90s sound so good and can really rock.

I wonder if you'd have better success with a different amp with your humbuckers. You might not prefer it over the P90s but you might find more use for them.

[muscmp]

i have a few guitars with p90s and even tho they can be noisy, they have their own character that should be in most everyone's arsenal. i have a wonderful les paul with fantastic humbuckers and wouldn't trade it for the world. i also have 2 strats and a tele that gives fantastic single coils sounds.

got to have them all. ha!

play music!

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

Yeah, I mentioned the S-500 to show solidarity with your MFD-equipped ASAT.

Bob

I do appreciate the MFD solidarity, but wanted to clarify for those new to G&L that they make 2 different MFD pickups - the regular one in your S-500, and the jumbo MFD in my Asat Special, about which G&L says http://glguitars.com/product/fullert...-asat-special/:

The ASAT Special, as the model became known, features jumbo single-coil Magnetic Field Design™ pickups, each with a narrow bobbin aperture for a coil which is shallow yet wide. In this regard, an MFD™ jumbo single coil is similar to a P-90 or Jazzmaster® pickup, yet the MFD principle provides a punchier bottom end and brighter top end sparkling with harmonics.

While the ones in your S-500 are described as http://glguitars.com/product/fullerton-deluxe-s500/

Magnetic Field Design™ single-coil pickups, each designed by Leo Fender himself. These MFD™ pickups deliver a bright and sparkly top end and robust bottom end, all without losing midrange focus.

The jumbos look like jazz masters. So, both great pickups, just different. I didn't want someone to get the idea there was only one MFD- I should have clarified my original description.

The G&L Asat Special was my second electric (after the LP) and first without humbuckers. I was attracted to that sound even before I knew the difference between humbuckers and single coils, including P90s. I may be a P90(jumbo MFD!) guy, after all.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by Dru Edwards

A thread about P90s, how cool is that.

I have a Gibson Les Paul and an SG with P90s. I also have those same guitars with humbuckers. I'm a humbucker guy myself but those P90s sound so good and can really rock.

I wonder if you'd have better success with a different amp with your humbuckers. You might not prefer it over the P90s but you might find more use for them.

I'm not wanting to force a use for the HBs - I ultimately want a complete palette for different musical genres, which seems to require HBs, but you could be right about the amp. I'm not up to "amp experimentation" stage yet. I use good quality SS amps that sound pleasing at the lower volumes I prefer, but I've heard well mic'd tube amps at those volumes that blow my SS amps away - they could well make a difference, and one day I'll get that tube amp to head down that endless road (but NO pedals!). Too many variables in the electric world - not enough life left to try them all.

[GCWaters]

Bob, have you compared the ‘57’s to Duncan ‘59’s?

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by GCWaters

Bob, have you compared the ‘57’s to Duncan ‘59’s?

Not in similar guitars. I installed a Seymour Duncan JB SH-4 in the bridge and a SH-1 '59 in the neck of an Epiphone Flying V I gave my son. The stock Epi pickups were always a tad shrill to my ears. When we installed these Duncans it made me genuinely miss that V. They were mellow and sweet and full-bodied, giving the guitar a really respectable sound.




Bob

[GCWaters]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

Not in similar guitars. I installed a Seymour Duncan JB SH-4 in the bridge and a SH-1 '59 in the neck of an Epiphone Flying V I gave my son. The stock Epi pickups were always a tad shrill to my ears. When we installed these Duncans it made me genuinely miss that V. They were mellow and sweet and full-bodied, giving the guitar a really respectable sound.




Bob

Thanks!!!!

[DukeX]

Originally Posted by Dru Edwards

...I wonder if you'd have better success with a different amp with your humbuckers...

Yes, I have the same question. I don't see the amp and speaker mentioned. They are a huge part of electric guitar tone.

I have three amps: 5e3 Tweed Deluxe, AC4HW1, Princeton Reverb. I also have a recent Epi ES-335 Dot (with SD Antiquity HBs in it). The original pickups were fine, no problems, but I love the Antiquities.

The Dot sounds heavenly through both the PR and Vox. It sounds good through the 5e3 as well yet, despite my knob turning and tweaking, it lacks articulation when played through the more mid-focused 5e3. I much prefer the Dot through the PR and Vox.

My conclusion: ChrisN may actually not like HBs, but he may just need more amps.

[FrankHudson]

I agree, amps factor in quite a bit, and on amps with usable tone controls and ways to manage the gain stages, you probably should use different settings for full size humbuckers and lower output single coils, at least some of the time.

However, I generally don't. May be to my detriment, but I play with a lot of different pickups, and when I have my amp set "right" I don't generally want to fool with it.

Volume makes a difference too. I may play at high volumes a few times a year, and guitars and their pickups often sound and react differently at high volumes compared to what sounds good at lower levels.

[Dru Edwards]

Originally Posted by GCWaters

Bob, have you compared the ‘57’s to Duncan ‘59’s?

I have both. I find the '59 can take a little more gain than the '57 classics. They're both great pickups but for '80s hard rock type music I'd take the SD '59 over the '57 Classic.

[GCWaters]

Originally Posted by Dru Edwards

I have both. I find the '59 can take a little more gain than the '57 classics. They're both great pickups but for '80s hard rock type music I'd take the SD '59 over the '57 Classic.

Thanks!!!!

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

I'm not wanting to force a use for the HBs - I ultimately want a complete palette for different musical genres, which seems to require HBs, but you could be right about the amp. I'm not up to "amp experimentation" stage yet. I use good quality SS amps that sound pleasing at the lower volumes I prefer, but I've heard well mic'd tube amps at those volumes that blow my SS amps away - they could well make a difference, and one day I'll get that tube amp to head down that endless road (but NO pedals!). Too many variables in the electric world - not enough life left to try them all.

You may find some tube amps to have a harder edge crunch initially but they will warm up with use. If you’re looking for a hotter humbucker to fill out your range of choices, the 2014 introduced Epiphone ProBucker is good (loud & very clear; touch sensitive), Epiphone’s equivalent to Gibson Burstbucker line but with magnet choice altered so as not to be too close a copy.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by Jaden

You may find some tube amps to have a harder edge crunch initially but they will warm up with use. If you’re looking for a hotter humbucker to fill out your range of choices, the 2014 introduced Epiphone ProBucker is good (loud & very clear; touch sensitive), Epiphone’s equivalent to Gibson Burstbucker line but with magnet choice altered so as not to be too close a copy.

I don't know that I'm looking for a harder edge crunch - just more clarity/articulation at lower volumes, more treble than bass, but with some strength behind it. I've heard some great boutique amps that give that - Carr and Milkman, some other Princeton clones. Basically, the P90 sound in a humbucker, but that may not be possible.

I've got a set of Probuckers for the Epi but haven't tried them yet (they're plug/play, which is nice, but even that's a chore through an F hole). They've got alnico II magnets. I thought with the IIs it would be less hot than the Vs, but I'm clearly not clear on what is "hot," and how hotness/non-hotness translates into what I hear. My assumption was that a "hot" pickup (to me, lots of windings and V magnet) would have so-so (less articulate) sound down low to enable better presentation at louder volumes with more distortion. I further assumed a (to me) less hot pickup would have fewer windings and a II, which would make it better for low volume clean work, but wouldn't allow lots of distortion without breaking up and sounding bad. If anyone's got a link to the Real Story on hotness v less hot pickups, including their construction and impact on various sounds, I'd love to check that out.

It seems all of the screaming shredder pickups have Vs, while the cool jazz pickups are IIs. My ES 390 w/mini HBs has IIs, and my LP 490/498 has a II in the neck, while the bridge came with a V (now a II). The Probuckers may be the answer to my quest, so thanks for the input. I'm clearly confused as to how the Probucker with its lower energy IIs can be the "hotter" pickup.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

I don't know that I'm looking for a harder edge crunch - just more clarity/articulation at lower volumes, more treble than bass, but with some strength behind it. I've heard some great boutique amps that give that - Carr and Milkman, some other Princeton clones. Basically, the P90 sound in a humbucker, but that may not be possible.

I've got a set of Probuckers for the Epi but haven't tried them yet (they're plug/play, which is nice, but even that's a chore through an F hole). They've got alnico II magnets. I thought with the IIs it would be less hot than the Vs, but I'm clearly not clear on what is "hot," and how hotness/non-hotness translates into what I hear. My assumption was that a "hot" pickup (to me, lots of windings and V magnet) would have so-so (less articulate) sound down low to enable better presentation at louder volumes with more distortion. I further assumed a (to me) less hot pickup would have fewer windings and a II, which would make it better for low volume clean work, but wouldn't allow lots of distortion without breaking up and sounding bad. If anyone's got a link to the Real Story on hotness v less hot pickups, including their construction and impact on various sounds, I'd love to check that out.

It seems all of the screaming shredder pickups have Vs, while the cool jazz pickups are IIs. My ES 390 w/mini HBs has IIs, and my LP 490/498 has a II in the neck, while the bridge came with a V (now a II). The Probuckers may be the answer to my quest, so thanks for the input. I'm clearly confused as to how the Probucker with its lower energy IIs can be the "hotter" pickup.

I think the number of windings generally determines how high of output a pickup is more so than magnet; Slash’s signature humbucker has the alnico II, for example. This whole thread has been an interesting read, and has made me question whether good SS amps nowadays lack the hard articulation that allows for full pickup clarity.
PS. Outside of single coil pickup instruments, I think you have a very good selection/flexibility with your guitars, but the missing piece might be a good tube amp.

[ChrisN]

I found an interesting blog post from the seller of my G&L that seems to address the concerns I've raised in this thread.
Sounds like I'd prefer a low output humbucker (bolding below is mine):
http://www.upfrontguitars.com/blog/2...-less-is-more/

For single coil loyalists, the humbucking — or dual coil — pickup has always been a conundrum. The extra power and fatter lead tone is attractive, but not at the expense of clarity and attack.

The humbucking pickup was originally developed as the name implies to fight hum. In this case the enemy was 60-cycle hum and noise induced by lighting, appliances, and grounding issues. The late 50’s Gibson PAF gets the credit as the first humbucking pickup, but Gretsch and others companies were producing similar designs during the same period.

While elimination of hum was the goal of the PAF and other pickups, the phase cancellation of high frequencies provided a warmer tone, and the series resistance of the two coils produced greater output and more midrange content. Almost by accident, the humbucker pickup was not only quieter, but more powerful and less shrill than the single coil pickups from Fender.

As distortion became a greater part of the musical landscape, players realized than the humbucker pickup could push the front end of their amp much harder, making it easier to distort. Mind you, this was before the huge explosion of pedals — and master volume amps were in also their infancy — and having a pickup that could help produce distortion was pretty handy. Play a humbucker through any small Fender tweed amp and you’ll get the picture.

But given human nature, if a little of something is good, too much will certainly be wonderful. In order to drive amplifiers into a frenzy, pickup makers started to build pickups with more windings and stronger magnets. The grandaddy of them all is the Dimarzio Super Distortion; one of the first if not the first hot humbucker. Favorites of hard rockers and metal players, nearly every established pickup manufacturer offers at least one type of high output humbucker.

But while human nature is predictable, so is physics. Pickups are inductors, and adding more windings to a pickup increases its output, but also its DC resistance and inductance. In general, increased DC resistance tends to increase midrange and reduce high end response. While how a pickup sounds is a result of many factors and the manufacturing process itself, as pickup output increases clarity tends to diminish and the sound gets darker. This is true of any pickup including single coils, and a “hot” single coil Strat pickup will generally be less glassy and clean than it’s vintage equivalent (not a bad thing at all if used in the bridge).

Tonally, the sound of a hot humbucker is a matter of taste, but to players used to the clean, transparent nature of a good single coil they sound dark, stiff, and dull. While they can create some pretty good crunch tones, their clean tones sometimes border on useless.

It doesn’t have to be that way though, and today there is a cottage industry of small builders trying to nail the sound of a “true” PAF pickup. Partly this is the dubious mojo of anything old and vintage, and partly because there is a realization that the original pickups sounded darn good. But while there “could” be some magic to a pickup wound in 1957 in Kalamazoo, the majority of the magic is magnet strength and DC resistance. And technically neither of those two things are magic, just physics.

With today’s cascading gain amplifiers and vast array of pedals, a really hot pickup is not necessary. Lower output pickups by their very nature will have a more even frequency response, more clarity, and better note definition. Even if you rarely play clean, the improvement in sound quality is noticeable even with pedals. Plenty of hard rock players known for their fiery licks use relatively mild pickups. The Duncan Alinco II Pro is one such pickup, and Seymour Duncan even now has a Slash signature version of the Alinco II. One of my favorites is the Duncan SH-1, which is used by Knaggs in their Kenai. This is also a fairly low resistance pickup (8K bridge) but I like the attack of the Alnico V magnet versus the Alnico II. The Arcane ’57 Experience is similar in nature to Alinco II Pro, and uses Alnico II magnets and moderate DC resistance. The result is good clarity, open midrange, and a balanced round low end.

How you wire up your pickups is important too. For humbucker pickups, 500K pots are the way to go, and a 1 Meg pot for the tone control can help improve the brightness of the pickup. For tone capacitors, .022mf is the general rule, but I like using a .015mf for the neck pickup. It does not roll high frequencies as aggressively, which is handy at the neck. If you are using “modern” wiring, a treble bleed capacitor/resistor is also a nice modification, but less so for “vintage” wiring. Wiring is a hole ‘nother blog post, and Premier Guitar Magazine has run a series of great articles on guitar wiring.