Question: Top and back frequency relation.

[HikariGuitars]

Originally Posted by Ned Milburn

At first I thought Howard might have been a bit strong with his method of expression. After your follow up post, I am thinking he was right on the mark and it was entirely fair and just to throw political correctness to the wind.

Talking about other people's salaries and how they manage on much or on little will not make a person many friends. Whether that salary is "piss poor" or not is a manner of perspective and values. And so many other factors are in place that I won't even attempt to try to discuss here - cost of living, desired lifestyle, desired profession in life, fulfilment of personal goals and values, the list goes on. Also, your selling price of 3k (is that Australian dollars) is a price that is at the "entry level" of hand-made instruments, and I do not know of any long term professional guitar builders who sell their instruments at this price.

A few specific examples:

Grit Laskin - I met him in Toronto and attended a workshop he gave in Vermont in 1997. His base price, I am told by a buyer, is now near 13k with a 3 year wait list. He builds very few instruments per year, and is in your "hobby builder" category. I don't think anyone who knows him and/or his instruments would ever be so presumptuous as to refer to him as a hobby builder.

Serge DeJong - A friend of mine (albeit not a "drinking buddy") from my Toronto days. His income is generated AFAIK solely from his dedication to guitar building - whether it is building and selling instruments, or whether it is teaching people how to build instruments. Know one who knows him or his guitars would call him a hobby builder.

Linda Manzer - Prices off the scale. I have visited her workshop, and though I can't call her a friend, 2 of my best friends and mentors in the guitar world are friends of hers. I don't think anyone would be so asinine as to call her a hobby builder.

There are many, many, many further examples of professional guitar builders who exist in Canada and other countries who are low volume, high quality, PROFESSIONAL builders.

There are many many types of businesses in the world, whether it accounting, legal, services, product manufacturing, product sales, etcetera. Small, mid, and large scale corporate businesses are ALL businesses and they all support people's incomes. Small businesses, in fact, make up a huge chunk of many (most??) countries' economies. Just because a business has a small output of product or services, this does not at all define the quality or "professionalism" of those businesses. If it is what people do to survive, no matter how wealthy or poor they are, it is a profession.

If you wish to categorize yourself as a "hobby builder", be free to define the term as you wish in relationship to yourself, but I would suggest it is safest not to attempt making a sweeping judgement and include the plethora of professional low volume guitar builders in your definition, no matter if they are builders of great repute and quality and income, or lesser known with lesser income.

As a lawyer whose hobby is build guitars, I couldn't agree more.

Anyway, lets keep it civil guys, no flame wars please... I joined that forum because I would never see people bashing each other. I would usually avoid forums because of that... I mean, if possible, please don't argue with each other in a "bad" way.

Thanks for the replies, regards, Hikari.

[printer2]

Originally Posted by mirwa

Sarcasm said's a lot about a person. Speaking volumes to me at the momment

Steve

Actually looked over my post again. Not meant as sarcasm. I was and still am unsure in the questions I asked.

Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
I guess I could make my guitars the time tested by gosh or by golly method, but if I want one of my guitars to end up in other people's hands I am going to use what ever method is available to me in making a good guitar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
After all, I am a lowly amateur builder just learning the craft.

The offending sarcastic parts are actually a well enough description of my building up to this point. The guitars I built so far were just done by feel with no measurements other than my from my hands and ears. I plan to do more with measuring instruments to get some numbers to relate to the raw wood. It may help me in building or it may not. Won't know till I try it.

As far as the lowly beginner, I feel that is where I am as compared to where I think I can end up. Don't think my name will ever be recognized as some of the fine builders on this forum but hopefully I can leave behind instruments that are good enough to get passed down to future generations.


Oh, the 'by gosh or by golly method' reference came from one of the guys I work with in my day job. He wanted to know how I decide how to build my guitars, I tried to explain my method and he summed it up with that line. I did not take offense from it when he said it, I am after all new to this craft.

[tadol]

I think we should also differentiate between artist and craftsman (craftsperson) - rather than hobbiest vs professional.

There are many craftspeople who can and do build good guitars - they follow fomulas, they have jigs and formulas and CNC equipment and can weigh and measure and test each piece and create a good, consistent, instrument. Whether its one a year or one a month or one an hour, its more a matter of getting enough of the right material and processing it efficiently. Its the model that you expect a factory to take, even if the factory is in someones garage or basement.

But you also have the artist - usually, they build with a different motivation. They like to try different things out, whether its size, shape, materials, decoration, bracing, etc. The best artists usually start as craftspeople, because that is the best way to learn about the tools, materials, and techniques. But they "evolve" beyond that - beyond following strict formulas for everything. And because of what they do, they usually do it in very small numbers.

Some people don't understand it - some think that everything can be reduced to frequencies and thicknesses and dimensions and formulas. And all that data can help build a good guitar. But in my (subjective) opinion - it takes even more to build a great one. And just like a factory, a hobbiest can sometimes get lucky and build one by accident, but I think it takes alot more to do it consistently.

But thats just my opinion-

[mirwa]

You have a real knack for taking things out of context ned
I quote

Originally Posted by Ned Milburn

Grit Laskin - I met him in Toronto and attended a workshop he gave in Vermont in 1997. His base price, I am told by a buyer, is now near 13k with a 3 year wait list. He builds very few instruments per year, and is in your "hobby builder" category. I don't think anyone who knows him and/or his instruments would ever be so presumptuous as to refer to him as a hobby builder.
Serge DeJong - A friend of mine (albeit not a "drinking buddy") from my Toronto days. His income is generated AFAIK solely from his dedication to guitar building - whether it is building and selling instruments, or whether it is teaching people how to build instruments. Know one who knows him or his guitars would call him a hobby builder.
Linda Manzer - Prices off the scale. I have visited her workshop, and though I can't call her a friend, 2 of my best friends and mentors in the guitar world are friends of hers. I don't think anyone would be so asinine as to call her a hobby builder.

In response too..

Originally Posted by mirwa

Charles, a hobbiest for me is anyone that is doing this as a side line gig, they have a job elsewhere that pays the bills and build guitars for the love of it.
Steve

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by Ned Milburn

Also, your selling price of 3k (is that Australian dollars) is a price that is at the "entry level" of hand-made instruments, and I do not know of any long term professional guitar builders who sell their instruments at this price..

I had actually used usd, as you will note the rest of my comments, I was using the IRS tax rates and so forth in my calculations. 3000USD is a pretty penny for a hand made guitar.

You have referred quite a few high end builders, but they would make up I am guessing less than 0.5 percent of the guitar building population of the world, so not really the norm, I usually when making comments try to use the mainstream situations.

My calculations were to emphasize to those that come along and read and do this for the enjoyment of it, how hard if not impossible it is to derive a living solely from building guitars, especially if you are only looking at a turn over of one a month.

Originally Posted by Ned Milburn

Talking about other people's salaries and how they manage on much or on little will not make a person many friends. Whether that salary is "piss poor" or not is a manner of perspective and values.

Originally Posted by mirwa

Yes its incredibly hard to make a full time living building a guitar a month.
Example, one guitar a month means 160 working hrs put into construction minimum, if your selling the guitar for 3k,
Then just taking into consideration for materials of guitar (500), thats 2.5k profit, not allowing for electricity, tool upkeep, water and all those other small ongoing costs.
You get $15.60 an hr, pay your 15 percent tax to the IRS and that is what $13.26 in your pocket per hr.
Sorry that is piss poor for a skilled artisan.

Again context ned

Steve