Binding rot?

ParisStarlight · #1 09-06-2018, 09:33 PM

If I’m looking at an older Gibson with binding rot how imperative is it to repair? I know, cosmetically it looks pretty rough. It has chunks missing. Is it structurally okay with the missing pieces, or will it affect it? If it’s playable as is I may invest in it as a beater and possibly eventually repair the binding.
Thanks for all your help, I appreciate those more knowledgeable than I!

simpl man · #2 09-06-2018, 10:29 PM

The binding is not a structural component.

Wade Hampton · #3 09-06-2018, 10:30 PM

Paris, chunks out of the body binding won't affect the structural stability of the guitar. The purpose of body binding is to absorb blows that might crack or dent the guitar along its edges. So it forms a buffer, which is an important role, but the guitar will have kerfed lining underneath where the top and sides and the back and sides meet. So those parts should be unaffected by missing pieces of binding here and there.

It might look diseased, but in and of itself it's not a major concern. What I would be more concerned about in this situation is the interior bracing of the guitar and whether the neck set, bridge plate and bridge remain stable. If those check out, then fixing the binding can wait.

Have a pro look at those other issues, and take it from there.

Hope this helps.

Wade Hampton Miller

Tico · #4 09-06-2018, 11:22 PM

How exactly could plastic, an inorganic material, "rot"?

Do you mean parts of the binding have chipped away or are separating from the wood?
Do you mean the finish on top of the plastic binding is discolored?

Wade Hampton · #5 09-06-2018, 11:38 PM

It’s simple, Tico - plasticizer chemicals that make plastic materials pliable continue to migrate out, in a process that’s sometimes called “off gassing.” When you sit in new car that has vinyl upholstery and smell that “new car smell,” what you’re actually smelling is some of these volatile chemical compounds gassing off as they migrate from the vinyl to the air.

So some of the chemicals that made up the new plastic bindings that were glued to the edges of the guitar when it was built fifty, sixty, eighty years ago are no longer present in the remains of the binding today. It’s no longer structurally stable the way it once was, and as a result it’s crumbling.

Al Carruth can describe the process more vividly than I can, but it’s a problem with lots of old guitars. It sounds as though the guitar the OP is interested in is a fairly advanced case, but it’s not as uncommon as you might assume.

Hope that makes more sense.

Wade Hampton Miller

B. Howard · #6 09-07-2018, 04:21 AM

First, the problem is not contained and will continue to get worse.... The rot will spread and the binding will slowly crumble away. while this poses no real structural loss as mentioned previously it does increase the chance of more serious damage from rather minor situations in a guitars life.

Second, replacing or repairing these situations is not an easy task. Just removal of what looks like it is ready to fall off is no easy task without proper tools and skill. Also, having a guitar completely rebound done correctly is typically not cheap either, even splicing in small sections of new binding instead of replacing it all costs a fair bit and leaves the old binding to start to rot again as it will.....

My advice is do not spend a lot on a guitar with this condition. Either consider it a disposable or plan on spending some cash on repairs if you do purchase.

mirwa · #7 09-07-2018, 05:55 AM

Old binding really cannot be repaired, well it can be patched repaired, but, it looks ugly and it just keeps on crumbling.

As Brian said, it’s an expensive job to have the binding replaced as invariably you have to do finish work on the top back and sides.

Find another guitar or accept it as it is or save some money to have it done around 450 last one I did

Steve

zombywoof · #8 09-07-2018, 06:25 AM

You have to remember also that lacquer finished guitars continually off gas which can on its own play havoc with binding and pickguards if the instrument remains locked away in its case for too long.

Even though I own Gibsons built in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s I have never had this problem with any them.

Epiphones, however, seem to be notorious for this. I own two NYC buillt guitars and both have binding issues. At the least it has just shrunk and popped off. On my FT-79 I just cut it and glued it back down. It leaves gaps but after some 15 years it has not impacted anything other than looks. On the other hand, I only own one guitar which was given a name. That would be my Epi Triump Regent which has been dubbed Bloody Mary. Having apparently been locked away in its case for many years the binding popped off and the pickguard literally melted leaving streaks that look all the world like dried blood.

hat · #9 09-07-2018, 07:06 AM

Old guitars used celluloid material for bindings. It has a tendency to deteriorate with age. In some instances, it has even been known to spontaneously combust. Hopefully that won't happen!

Big Band Guitar · #10 09-07-2018, 08:29 AM

Many years ago someone gave me a old "Ward" arch top tenor that needed a neck reset and all of the binding was gone. The binding groove was beat up. While the neck was off I recut the binding groove deeper and wider then replaced it with an oversize binding. Looks good and plays good.

I did the work myself, the binding was less than $10.

John Arnold · #11 09-07-2018, 09:49 AM

Celluloid is an unstable compound that is stabilized by adding camphor during the manufacture. Camphor is volatile, and will eventually gas out. It may take 25 years, or over 100. There seems to be no way to predict it, though some sources (New York area guitars in particular) are more troublesome. This is more of a problem when the celluloid is exposed on all surfaces, like an elevated archtop guitar or mandolin pickguard.
Celluloid can spontaneously combust or discolor surrounding surfaces when it goes unstable. It also releases nitric acid, which is very corrosive to metal components like frets, tuners, and tailpieces.
With that in mind, it is best to remove unstable celluloid before it damages the guitar.
The only Gibsons I have seen with crumbling binding are those from the 1970's. The last US factory that made celluloid closed around 1970, and sourcing it from Italy, China, or Japan has been iffy.

ParisStarlight · #12 09-07-2018, 11:54 AM

I appreciate all the info. It is a 70s Gibson. I made an offer stating the cost of binding replacement and a possible headstock repair. It has been done, but in photos looks to be coming loose again. Other than that the tip surprisingly has no bellying and no cracks. Be a good around the house guitar if I can get it at a good price, I may even attempt the binding myself someday.