Taylor…Worst to Best

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Tom Petty used the imix with the M1 from 2006 until his final show in 2017. If I remember correctly, the sound tech would put mostly M1 in the monitors to control feedback but run more of the ibeam for the front of house tones. Petty always had a nice acoustic sound.

That’s an interesting bit of information that I was unaware of. Thanks!

[jay42]

I had an odd experience recently that I won't explain as much to say that some sound guys are still unfamiliar with the ES system and they won't take as a puzzle to solve.
I've never heard a Taylor with the Matrix system that sounded bad -- same goes for Anthem (SL or not)...whereas I rarely hear an ES system guitar that sounds good. I think it's for want of effort. If the ES presented a close to usable sound into a flat PA, all these complaints might evaporate.

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by jay42

I've never heard a Taylor with the Matrix system that sounded bad -- same goes for Anthem (SL or not)...whereas I rarely hear an ES system guitar that sounds good.

Can you define “bad” and “good” in those case?

Is the ES (1 or 2) too trebly? Too bassy? Too quacky?

If it helps, you can refer to my previous post in which I posted samples of all 3 pickups, so everyone can listen. (The 2nd sample is always the pickup with no FX)

In my opinion, the sensors are not guilty it is how the preamp is voiced…
my 2 cents
Cuki

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

Can you define “bad” and “good” in those case?

Is the ES (1 or 2) too trebly? Too bassy? Too quacky?

If it helps, you can refer to my previous post in which I posted samples of all 3 pickups, so everyone can listen. (The 2nd sample is always the pickup with no FX)

In my opinion, the sensors are not guilty it is how the preamp is voiced…
my 2 cents
Cuki

If I can add a point here, my issue with the original ES was that it sounded like an electric guitar. That's a very simplistic way of looking at it, but it was an odd tone for sure. I remember playing shows where I would solo up the neck and it sounded like I had switched to a hollow-bodied guitar. To be honest, I am surprised Taylor ever thought this was a useable system. It sounded nothing like any of the other pickups on the market.. in a bad way.

[jimmy bookout]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

"Obsolete" is a relative term for acoustic pickups. How old are The Fishman Matrix, the Baggs element or the K&K pickups?

I believe Fishman Matrix is 30 years old... and still alive.
K&K twin spot was introduced in 1990.

Taylor marketing is aimed to promote novelty and thus dooms older products to obsolescence.

^^^
Spot on!
There's always a "new" shiny penny in the pickup world. I have a drawer full of them!
FWIW, one can order any Taylor with NO pickup and save yourself $300.

[jimmy bookout]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Tom Petty used the imix with the M1 from 2006 until his final show in 2017. If I remember correctly, the sound tech would put mostly M1 in the monitors to control feedback but run more of the ibeam for the front of house tones. Petty always had a nice acoustic sound.

I have the "old" iMix (Element/iBeam) in 6 guitars. It is a great system. I plug straight into my Genzler Mini Array and get the tone I want. When we play bigger gigs, I go out of the Genzler into a Bose Tonematch/L1.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by jimmy bookout

^^^
Spot on!
There's always a "new" shiny penny in the pickup world. I have a drawer full of them!
FWIW, one can order any Taylor with NO pickup and save yourself $300.

Despite the fact that Taylor guitars are pretty consistent, I personally would never order a guitar I had never tried. It is unfortunate that they are so tied to their pickups. I am fine since I have moved on from wanting Taylor guitars, but give customers an option.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by jay42

I had an odd experience recently that I won't explain as much to say that some sound guys are still unfamiliar with the ES system and they won't take as a puzzle to solve.
I've never heard a Taylor with the Matrix system that sounded bad -- same goes for Anthem (SL or not)...whereas I rarely hear an ES system guitar that sounds good. I think it's for want of effort. If the ES presented a close to usable sound into a flat PA, all these complaints might evaporate.

I was hosting open mics in a couple of venues when the ES system was introduced. Some of the ES-equipped Taylor’s had a very usable sound while others had a hollow, in-the-cave sound which was difficult to do anything to improve. At the time, luthier and pickup designer Dave Wendler opined that every guitar is different and that the soundboard transducer which is incorporated into the ES system was’t placed in the best location for many of the ES guitars.

[jay42]

As best I can explain, ES guitars tend to need some deep notches in the A220 and 1 to 2kHz areas for starters. I don't hear good string to string clarity or definition. Put another way, I hear blur or smear where I want to hear up to six notes. I apologize if this is vague. I have heard improvement in a few guitar amplifiers where I have replaced the output transformers with upgrades.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by jay42

As best I can explain, ES guitars tend to need some deep notches in the A220 and 1 to 2kHz areas for starters. I don't hear good string to string clarity or definition. Put another way, I hear blur or smear where I want to hear up to six notes. I apologize if this is vague. I have heard improvement in a few guitar amplifiers where I have replaced the output transformers with upgrades.

I wouldn’t expect an open mic host or sound person to even have the time or the gear available to do anything elaborate with respect to EQing your guitar signal.

In my own case, I used a Zoom A1-Four pedal to handle the elaborate EQ correction for my Anthem SL-equipped guitar. The Zoom A1-Four allows you to program a patch for a specific instrument using whatever simulated graphic EQ devices and/or simulated parametric EQ devices are needed for the job (using headphones or a flat monitor at home). Beyond that, you have a manual three band EQ for whatever “quick and dirty” adjustments may be needed at the venue.

It’s not a perfect solution, but it usually got me in the ballpark of decent sound in those quick setup situations.

LR Baggs introduced their M1 soundhole pickups in Dec. of 2005 and I believe they demoed some of them in Taylor guitars to demonstrate that they sounded better than the ES system. That would be around the 2006 Winter NAMM. I can’t find any video of that, so perhaps they caught some flack from Taylor. In any event, the ES1 is long gone while the M1 is still a rather popular soundhole pickup.

[jimmy bookout]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Despite the fact that Taylor guitars are pretty consistent, I personally would never order a guitar I had never tried. It is unfortunate that they are so tied to their pickups. I am fine since I have moved on from wanting Taylor guitars, but give customers an option.

Well, as a lefty, I have little choice but to order a guitar...

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by jimmy bookout

I have the "old" iMix (Element/iBeam) in 6 guitars. It is a great system. I plug straight into my Genzler Mini Array and get the tone I want. When we play bigger gigs, I go out of the Genzler into a Bose Tonematch/L1.

On the subject of the iMix, it should be noted that the system has a stereo/mono switch. In stereo mode you can use a stereo cable, or a stereo to Y cable, and get as geeky as you want (or as your gear allows) with processing the signals separately before blending. It’s similar to the Fishman Prefix plus mic system in this regard.

[jimmy bookout]

^^^^
I've found that there's plenty of adjustability with the onboard iMix preamp on the initial installation. Over the years when I've installed the system in a guitar, I spend a lot of time at home getting the pickup balance,eq/etc dialed in so it is just plug and play on a gig.
I have experimented running it stereo and, for me, it was a lot of messing around for no discernable advantage in tone.
When I'm playing a gig, I need to be focused on my playing, not adjusting my equipment. The easier the better for me.

[Petty1818]

I could be wrong but I think the imix might have been discontinued. I can't seem to find it on the Lr Baggs website. I remember looking a few months ago and struggling to find it as well.

[jricc]

I love my Taylor AD22e, I do not love the ES-2 system, I 've tightened and loosened the piezo allen screws, I've tried using it with a Zoom A1 Four, a Bodyrez, a GEQ7, TECH 21 Acoustic Flyrig, and lately an EAE Stompmix and to my ears, it still sounds strident and grainy.

I REALLY want to like it, but in my solo situation, it just doesn't sound good to me. Really open to suggestions!

The last couple of gigs I stuck a Baggs M80 in the soundhole and I prefer that, not ideal, but to me better than the ES-2