Third Party IRs. Are they all lousy or is it just me?

[Daniel Grenier]

So this is essentially my first foray in the nebulous (to me) IR realm. My set up: Boucher OM with K&K pure Mini and an internal mic fed into a Sunnaudio MS-2 stereo preamp using mid-side feature and out in stereo to 2 powered speakers. MS-2 channel 1 is the K&K, ch2 the mic. The sound coming out of this rig is, to me, fantastic.

The intent with pumping in IRs was to see if the K&K's game could be upped some. I downloaded several 3rd party "Acoustic IRs" using a simple TC Electronics IR Loader and fed that into Ch 1 pre (K&K) of the MS-2. No, I have not had an IR generated using my own gear and no, I do not have a Tonedexter or similar gear.

Anyway, no matter which of these 3rd party IRs I battle with, they are ALL mediocre in comparison to my non-IR'd set up.

Is this normal and expected or am I missing something?

[shufflebeat]

Do you have a recording setup?

[BoxCar_Joe]

I used a file that came with my IR loader for a Takemine. ( I play a Martin).

It does the magic for me and my transducer pickup. Very sweet sound.

All the others I downloaded just OK but not impressive. So keep looking.

[guitaniac]

When it comes to IRs, a lot depends on what pickup is used when the IR is created. The Aura stock IRs work well for folks with Fishman USTs because the Aura gallery has a ton of various IRs to download and try out AND most of those IRs were created using Fishman USTs.

For the best chance of finding a compatable stock IR, you'll need to find IRs created with K&K pickups. One factor going against you is that the Bouchers are pretty unique guitars. I doubt that there are many stock IRs around which were created with a K&K pickup and a Boucher guitar, let a Boucher guitar of the same or similar model as yours.

[Foss38]

Are IR's not most effective with PIEZO style PUP's?

[BlueStarfish]

Hi Daniel,

Yes, what you describe is normal.

Here's why. IR's are basically transformation functions. They are generated by taking a base pickup signal from a particular guitar and pickup combination, comparing it to a mic signal from the same recording take, and then generating a mathematical function that transforms the pickup signal into the mic signal. You can see from this explanation, that if the base signal is different (different guitar and, particularly, different pickup) then a different IR is likely needed.

Here's a simplified analogy. Say you are in San Mateo. You want to know how to get to San Jose. The fastest route is "take the 101 south for 30 miles." That's the equivalent of the IR -- the transformation function. The "take the 101 south for 30 miles." However if your starting point is Sacramento instead of San Jose, that transformation function won't do you any good. The 101 isn't anywhere close, and going south 30 miles from Sacramento puts you partway to Stockton in the middle of nowhere. Hope that helps in understanding.

Back to how to make IR's work for you ... you will get best results with an IR that is customized for your guitar and pickup. If you have a recording set-up you can try to record a mic signal and pickup signal and use one of the various free IR generators. You could then load the IR into your existing pedal. Or you could purchase either a Baggs Voiceprint or ToneDexter, which has onboard processing to generate the IR as well as play it back. As well as preamps, feedback control, and various other features. Hope this is helpful.

[89bruin]

Funny how some of the 3rd party IR authors/sellers claim their IRs will work with any guitar - that hasn’t been my experience. I agree with the OP that they generally sound bad. The only luck I’ve had is with IRs made with the same guitar & pickup and even then I’m not convinced I can’t do just as well with some EQ.

[Gordon Currie]

Third party IRs work best for something like a speaker cabinet. Especially an industry standard.

In my experience they work very poorly for acoustic guitars overall, unless you happen to use an 'industry standard' guitar.

As mentioned your Boucher is NOT standard. (This is a good thing!)

You should investigate the (free!) software IR capture system created by members Cuki and jonfields:
https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=587341

You can generate your own IRs without needing to buy ToneDexter or VoicePrint.

[buzzardwhiskey]

I've tried a dozen or more pre-made IRs with the TC Loader. My McPherson Sable is just not helped by this setup when volumes get higher than "intimate restaurant". Good EQ and the weird compression thing that the TC Bodyrez imparts is working for me.

[RogerPease]

(Bing, bing, BONG)

jonfields and Cuki to a white courtesy telephone.
Dr, jonfields and Dr. Cuki to a white courtesy telephone, please!

(ker-THUNK)

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by RogerPease

(Bing, bing, BONG)

jonfields and Cuki to a white courtesy telephone.
Dr, jonfields and Dr. Cuki to a white courtesy telephone, please!

(ker-THUNK)

I think everything has been said. What do you want us to add?

Most already made IRs are made for UST and not K&K

Daniel Grenier should try a custom IR from Jon or I.

He can check my website:
acousticir.free.fr

[jonfields45]

Send me 30 seconds of pickup and mic recorded at the same time in a .wav file and I'll send you back a custom IR. Ideally pickup left mic right, but I can fix that and even separate files is ok too.

3rd party IRs can be useful if you have that exact pickup and guitar combination.

Also, IRs for guitar cabinets are measured and the 100% IR that cabinet IR loaders are designed for are not appropriate for acoustic guitar IRs which are calculated (with a long list of math assumptions that are only mostly true). Generally less than 100% IR sounds best with an acoustic and I will send you a selection of mixes.

Electric guitarists like distortion, which without the lowpass filter of a typical guitar amp cabinet sounds AWFUL. Classic distortion pedals such as a Tube Screamer include bandpass filtering and are not too bad into a PA, but an accurate model of some old tube amp chassis, such as a Fender Deluxe Reverb, does not include the low pass filter of the FDR open back 12" speaker cabinet. As electric guitar amp modeling has taken off those models need to processed properly with a real guitar cabinet, or an IR of one to be useful. I think this might be some of the driver for what seems to be a big interest in speaker cabinet IRs: not that a particular cabinet is so important, but no cabinet is bad.

[Daniel Grenier]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

Send me 30 seconds of pickup and mic recorded at the same time in a .wav file and I'll send you back a custom IR. ....

Thanks John. I will send you a file and we'll see where that gets me and thanks also for the enlightenment on IRs. Cheers!

[erniecaster]

Hi,

you are not alone.

Whenever I try something with IRs I am blown away for a few minutes. But that´s only when I check the sound. As soon as I start to play a song, I immediately want to mix the IR down as the hole sound tends to be weak. No more oomph, no body, just - well - "nice" but not a working, adult sound.

Listen again, I will turn the IR down even more. In a context with other instruments, my favourite setting for IR is finally always zero.

IRs are not for me. I reduce the "quack"-frequency with a parametric EQ and fix the dynamic of the pickup with a little compression. A tiny bit of reverb from FOH or just over the vocal mics, done.

cu

erniecaster

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by Foss38

Are IR's not most effective with PIEZO style PUP's?

Soundboard pickups like the K&K Mini Pure use piezo material, so I call them piezo pickups. If you mean undersaddle pickups (USTs) by the term "PIEZO style PUPs", then no, James May has designed ToneDexter to be just as effective with soundboard pickups as it is with undersaddle pickups. The problem for the OP (thread starter) with ToneDexter is that the user has to create his/her own IRs.

Luckily for the OP, forum members (like Jon) who volunteer to create IRs from simultaneous mic/pickup recordings seem to be equally effective with recordings off soundboard pickups or undersaddle pickups.

Personally, I'm hoping that IRs created with magnetic pickups can be somewhat effective. I just put a mag in my old D28 and am looking forward to trying it out with my 1st generation Fishman Aura Sound Imaging Blender. This device has five sound images onboard which were created with magnetic pickups in various guitars. I tend to favor using a modest amount of Aura sound images (37.5%), so I shouldn't be able to screw the sound up too badly.🤪