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  #61  
Old 01-14-2023, 08:17 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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Back in the earlier days of Pro Tools, before cross fades were added to the program, nearly every edit would create a pop or click. To fix them, you had to zoom in very close and use the pencil tool to rewrite the line to create a smoother transition across the edit line. That pencil tool was a bit temperamental and didn't always do what you wanted it to do. Sometimes you had to attempt the rewrite a bunch of times before you got what you wanted. It was a huge pain in the behind but it was what we had to do to clean up the edits.
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  #62  
Old 01-14-2023, 10:25 PM
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This thread has gone deep into video, which is very cool but way over my head or aspirations as of today. (Ask me again if I get good enough to imitate Glennwillow.)

But no one else is mentioning Studio One. I guess it got its start a dozen years ago appealing to amateurs, and of course I’ll always be one of those. But it has come an enormous way since then, and compared to the comp procedures I see in this thread, I think its comp workflow is at least as good or better. Colors, full-take promotions (if you get lucky with the performance), everything reversible. I even lost track of part of a track I’d gotten down earlier. Panic ensued until I opened the takes — they were still there — and just swiped them back into the track. Big smiles.

If I find it easy, let me assure you it’s easy.

And no offense meant to Luna, but that thing is fighting you. I notice it’s free, which is huge. But the entry-level Studio One Prime is free, too. And if you buy the $100 Presonus AudioBox USB interface, you get the Artist version at no extra cost. There is a Fort Knox of free training videos, too.

If I can figure it out, you can. But it has what appears to me to be a professional workflow that stacks up to the Gold Standard Pro Tools — for comping, at least.

https://pae-web.presonusmusic.com/up...ersions_1_.pdf
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  #63  
Old 01-14-2023, 11:18 PM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
Back in the earlier days of Pro Tools, before cross fades were added to the program, nearly every edit would create a pop or click. To fix them, you had to zoom in very close and use the pencil tool to rewrite the line to create a smoother transition across the edit line. That pencil tool was a bit temperamental and didn't always do what you wanted it to do. Sometimes you had to attempt the rewrite a bunch of times before you got what you wanted. It was a huge pain in the behind but it was what we had to do to clean up the edits.
Jim, Doesn't using "select edit at zero crossing point" in your DAW commands take care of that? Just curious.
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  #64  
Old 01-14-2023, 11:24 PM
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Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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Someone present an example of a finished product of yours where the morphs (cuts) are still reasonably detectible to the listener.
With the "morphing" discussion, I think the focus was video, so it'd be obvious to the "watcher", not necessarily the listener. I can't find one off the top of my head, but I see videos all the time - usually people talking - where the video edits are obvious, characterized by a way-too-sudden movement. Some seem to just make it a feature, not a bug, to have abrupt, obvious cuts. I know I've done this in dialog sections of videos for Acoustic Guitar, where I just wanted to cut a sentence out or something. They used to cross-fade this sort of thing when they did the edits, I tended to just leave them in as jumps when I did the editing - both are quite obvious, but I always took some reassurance that no one was really watching those that closely.

For just audio, with modern tools, the biggest tip off for something exposed like solo guitar is a shift in the stereo image at an edit point, which I have heard even on a few commercial releases, tho I can't name any at the moment. Volume differences between takes are easy to hear as well, tho those are easier to fix than an image shift. For more complex songs with lots of parts, edits to one track will be much harder to notice unless it's really botched.

Back when I did my first solo CD, I had it mastered by David Glaser at Airshow, and I had like 2 or 3 edits on the entire CD. But I was nervous about them. I thought I'd done them well, but I thought surely this professional mastering outfit would notice and laugh at my edits. So I asked, and he assured me he hadn't noticed, and went on to tell me of some famous engineer who had been asked in an interview what a good edit sounded like. He replies "I don't know, I've never heard one" :-)
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  #65  
Old 01-15-2023, 12:40 AM
Chipotle Chipotle is offline
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Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
Jim, Doesn't using "select edit at zero crossing point" in your DAW commands take care of that? Just curious.
It might now, but back in the days of Cool Edit 2000 you had to do it manually.
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  #66  
Old 01-15-2023, 01:33 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
Jim, Doesn't using "select edit at zero crossing point" in your DAW commands take care of that? Just curious.
I was describing how I had to do comp edits 20+ years ago. These days, Pro Tools has automatic cross fades so there's no need for a "select edit at zero crossing point" command ...but I wish that command had existed back in the day. it would have cut editing time significantly.
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  #67  
Old 01-15-2023, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Chipotle View Post
Adobe Premiere has a transition called Morph Cut. It's usually used for stuff like talking-head interviews, but if you can get a change in position that's very close, it can do an amazing job of morphing between clips and making a cut look seamless. Not sure if FCP has such a thing, or how hard it would be to try to get your position (at least initially) closer during filming.
Thanks for heads up and FCP does have a number of transition effects also The main problem with specific video I showed was I had inadvertently bumped the camera tripod between the two the electric guitar takes, which shifted the camera angle such that I have shifted from closer to center in one take, to further left frame in the field of view, in the other take. And then compounded it by me shifting my body ever further (frame left). And things like the default transition in FCP do not mask that drastic shift in position.
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  #68  
Old 01-15-2023, 08:15 AM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
I was describing how I had to do comp edits 20+ years ago. These days, Pro Tools has automatic cross fades so there's no need for a "select edit at zero crossing point" command ...but I wish that command had existed back in the day. it would have cut editing time significantly.
Thank you. I missed the "Back in the earlier days" part.

I'm not a Pro Tools user and assumed that would have been pretty much a common DAW command from the early days. I remember the command being present in my very first copy of "N Track". Well, that's dating me...
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  #69  
Old 01-15-2023, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by b1j View Post
This thread has gone deep into video, which is very cool but way over my head or aspirations as of today. (Ask me again if I get good enough to imitate Glennwillow.)

But no one else is mentioning Studio One. I guess it got its start a dozen years ago appealing to amateurs, and of course I’ll always be one of those. But it has come an enormous way since then, and compared to the comp procedures I see in this thread, I think its comp workflow is at least as good or better. Colors, full-take promotions (if you get lucky with the performance), everything reversible. I even lost track of part of a track I’d gotten down earlier. Panic ensued until I opened the takes — they were still there — and just swiped them back into the track. Big smiles.

If I find it easy, let me assure you it’s easy.

And no offense meant to Luna, but that thing is fighting you. I notice it’s free, which is huge. But the entry-level Studio One Prime is free, too. And if you buy the $100 Presonus AudioBox USB interface, you get the Artist version at no extra cost. There is a Fort Knox of free training videos, too.

If I can figure it out, you can. But it has what appears to me to be a professional workflow that stacks up to the Gold Standard Pro Tools — for comping, at least.

https://pae-web.presonusmusic.com/up...ersions_1_.pdf
This thread started about audio comping and in terms of that alone most major DAWs have a comping feature and the workflows are probably 80% or 90% similar

As far as "
Quote:
But it has come an enormous way since then, and compared to the comp procedures I see in this thread, I think its comp workflow is at least as good or better. "
Unclear as to what you might mean by " compared to the comp procedures I see in this thread" ? Given the only visual of comping was Dougs video, on comping in Logic ? Pretty hard to imagine it gets any "better" or easier than swipe and promote ???





I am probably the one guilty of injecting how audio comping can effect the complexity of video editing for music videos . But understand I was not talking about video editing in Pro Tools I was talking about using/importing a comped audio file into a dedicated video editing platform like Final Cut Pro X and dealing with video issues that audio comping can create
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Last edited by KevWind; 01-15-2023 at 08:58 AM.
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  #70  
Old 01-15-2023, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
Thank you. I missed the "Back in the earlier days" part.

I'm not a Pro Tools user and assumed that would have been pretty much a common DAW command from the early days. I remember the command being present in my very first copy of "N Track". Well, that's dating me...
Well understanding that Pro Tools was pretty much the first commercially viable digital "audio" editing software and was pretty basic in the beginning ( if I remember correctly at first it had only 2 audio tracks ) And PT was very much a pioneer platform for developing digital "audio" editing, and things accepted as standard DAW audio editing features today, are the result of an ongoing process of development.
Other DAWs were also in the starting phases around the same time frame ,,but they were primarily midi sequencing focused, where PT (when it became Pro Tools ) was audio editing focused, and when the other DAW's also started including audio editing, there had already been significant developments as to what was standard features ..
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Last edited by KevWind; 01-15-2023 at 10:32 AM.
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  #71  
Old 01-15-2023, 03:59 PM
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Let's see... SSL's proprietary rig had zero-crossing editing onboard.
Digidesign's proprietary Sound Designer did not, but it was a basket case anyway. We bought a pair for $70k each and a year later Digi came back and said, "We're discontinuing Sound Designer. If you want to continue, you need to buy to our new product, Pro Tools, " with software and hardware priced at $70k per station. Management wasn't about to shell out again within a single year so we went to...
Fairlight MFX3. Their proprietary rig had zero-crossing editing and absolute zero problems with latency. However, in five years they went bankrupt. Our large-format console manufacturers suggested we forego ProTools at that juncture because at that time they had extensive latency problems that made it impossible to mix in the box because as you added processing, the stereo mix would begin to fold up to money and phase smear. The only commercial work station that had utterly conquered latency and had zero crossing editing was...
Steinberg Nuendo, so we went with it. It has served us excellently for twenty years.

Of course, ProTools had matured into the industry standard, but not without pulling the "upgrade both software and hardware at full retail or be dead-ended" trick twice more.

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  #72  
Old 01-15-2023, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
This thread started about audio comping and in terms of that alone most major DAWs have a comping feature and the workflows are probably 80% or 90% similar

As far as " Unclear as to what you might mean by " compared to the comp procedures I see in this thread" ? Given the only visual of comping was Dougs video, on comping in Logic ? Pretty hard to imagine it gets any "better" or easier than swipe and promote ???
Kev, I meant at least as good as Pro Tools and probably better than Luna.
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  #73  
Old 01-16-2023, 08:10 AM
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Kev, I meant at least as good as Pro Tools and probably better than Luna.
Well understanding "better" is a subjective term. It looks to me that Luna offers the same thing, but you have to use the cut and paste commands to promote it to the comp track, so it's maybe one or two more keystrokes and thus perhaps slightly less efficient (at this point in time).
BUT given Luna is proprietary to UA hardware only,,, unless you have a UA interface, it's not really a consideration
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  #74  
Old 01-16-2023, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Well understanding that Pro Tools was pretty much the first commercially viable digital "audio" editing software and was pretty basic in the beginning ( if I remember correctly at first it had only 2 audio tracks )
Digidesign SoundTools was 2 tracks. The first iteration of Pro Tools in 1991 was 4 tracks (I beta tested it while at Microsoft). There was a scrappy competitor software called Session 8 that bested Pro Tools for a year or so with 8 tracks.
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  #75  
Old 01-16-2023, 02:11 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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BUT given Luna is proprietary to UA hardware only,,, unless you have a UA interface, it's not really a consideration
When Luna was first released it was missing quite a lot of features that were found on nearly every other daw. UA has been playing catchup in the 2-3 years since then but it's still not there yet ...however, for those with simpler needs, it's usable.

That said, for anyone thinking about it, I think it's a really bad time to invest in a new UA interface, especially if you haven't owned any UA hardware in the past. Computers have advanced to the point where UA's dsp becomes a limitation that no one really needs. UA knows this so a new line of interfaces have to be in the works.
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