Collings vs. Bourgeois

[mlr1122]

Great thread. All of the above generalizations are true. I’ve owned OM’s and mahogany dreads from both.

I think it comes down to the wood combo and individual guitar. I didn’t bond at all with the Bourgeois OM I owned (ADI/IRW). The Collings OM (Adi/Braz) was incredible. I sold it only because I could purchase two great guitars in place of it

For the dreads, the Collings was nice and comfortable....great balanced sound but left me wanting more. The Bourgeois fully torrefied dread I have now is from another planet. I love the neck, and the sound is indescribably deep. It never disappoints

So I think you’ll find hits and misses in both camps.

[BrunoBlack]

I also appreciate the excellent post by AMW. Having been through 0 — Dread models with both brands over the years, I’ve liked them all. However I still own the Bourgeois OM (7+yrs) and 2 Collings OM (6+ yrs) models that I purchased new. There were a couple of points AMW made that resonated with me in particular.

“Collings are a little tighter when they're new. And it is kind of a sore spot for us, because so many people buy new Collings guitars and trade in and out of them before they are even close to broken in! ... but there is nothing as tonally sure of itself as a well played-in Collings.”

“...while the bass response is a thing that flowers and develops over time, treble response does not, in most cases. Typically, you will hear more warmth and depth developing in the bass of a guitar as you continue to play it, but the trebles never really "ascend" from where they are in the beginning. That's why it is important to have high end clarity early in the life of a guitar.”

In my experience, the Bourgeois started out dark, warm and balanced with virtually no break in required. It remains one of the sweetest sounding guitars I’ve owned. The Collings started out great & interesting, but they slowly and consistently matured into a uniquely complex, balanced and warm/mellow voice that is truly special. They are remarkable imo — and very stable.

Thanks AMW for a great post.

[LakewoodM32Fan]

I've only had a chance to audition one Bourgeois (a D-Vintage) which was a great sounding/playing guitar but my memory on it is hazy outside of remembering I was impressed by it (but blown away by the TD-R which is what I took home).

I have recently had the occasion to play quite a few Collings (like a half dozen at two stores) on my way to purchasing my OM2H. I can attest to what AMW posted. All 12th fret action was between 3/32" and 4/32", fit and finish were all spot on. As AMW mentioned, a few of the ones I played did play "tight", but the one I took home (torrefied sitka top) sounded very open and close to a OM2H T with a non-baked sitka top. I took home the non-T because the sound was so close but I ended up saving a grand or so because the upcharge for torrefied sitka is much less than the "T" package upcharge.

Because I'm more after the sound of the "T" series, any future Collings I may purchase (and I have a strong suspicion I'll be buying one at some point!) will either have a baked top or be a "T" model. Very sweet, open mids, not much of a "scooped" sound despite being EIR b/s. My OM2H actually sounds closer to my Martin 000 sinker mahogany b/s than it does my SCGC OM EIR b/s.

You can't go wrong with either one, and I'm super excited after reading AMW and others' to hear how my OM2H transforms over time. I know baked tops don't transform as much as non-baked tops, though, so I'm glad I love the sound as it is now.

[brencat]

The post from AMW on page 2 was spectacular. One of the best things I've ever read on the AGF!

I am one of those people that perhaps didn't give the Collings I once owned enough time. The 2 OMs and a CW Indian were challenging for me to play cleanly, whereas Martin and Santa Cruz were super-forgiving. I didn't have to work that hard to enjoy playing on those builders. That was 3 - 4 years ago, and I'm a much different player now.

So I recently traded my Bourgeois JOMT Vintage to another forum member for his 2015 Collings OM1MC (Sitka/Mountain Cedar). I had heard one of these at Hill Country Guitars years back and loved it then, probably should have bought it. Got another bite at the apple here on AGF and took it. LOVE the guitar. The playability is super forgiving, and night and day from what I remember from my last go round with Collings. -- I still can't believe it. I've played well over 25 Collings OMs and Dreads and owned 3 prior, the most hands on playing time of any other brand save for Martin. This particular OM1MC is the ONLY Collings so far that I love the playability on (and the tone, which is much warmer than typical). The guitar has been played but I don't think a lot. How much of this improved 'feel' is due to my development as a player? I can't say. The guitar is strong and loud all the way up the neck, like all Collings are.

My experience with Bourgeois is much more limited. The JOMT Vintage I traded, and the 2020 D-Vintage I currently own are much more oriented toward the Martin tonal profile, as AMW stated. The bass response of the D-Vintage is deep but not boomy, the low-mids are present, and the trebles do not "snap" or ring like a Martin -- they are a bit more rounded off there, which I'm not sure I like so much. Playability on both is more forgiving than a typical Collings (but not my OM1MC which has them both beat). Both guitars recorded amazingly well, maybe the best of anything I've owned. If there is a con, I'd say they were/are a bit heavy for my liking. Not sure if all Bourgeois are like mine, but I've heard similar stories from others. "Could be lighter..."

Both Collings and Bourgeois use a bolt on neck design, and there absolutely is a difference in feel and playability (to me) between brands using this construction method and those using the traditional glued dovetail neck join like Martin and Santa Cruz. The Collings and Bourgeois necks feel rigid...like the resonance and vibrations are significantly curtailed as they leave the body and enter the neck, whereas on a Martin and especially Santa Cruz, the entire guitar including the neck is 'alive.' Santa Cruzes and some Martin Authentics also have a certain "flex" feel when you depress a string to fret a note...like when you bounce on a trampoline or draw back on a compound bow, there is tension and then it relaxes. I've yet to feel that flex in any bolt on neck guitar that I've owned from Collings, Bourgeois, or Goodall. But my Santa Cruzes -- especially the 1934D, have that tactile feedback in spades.

Hope this helps.

[Rmccamey]

Thank you AMW. Very insightful and a much more useful review than most of the vague generalities usually passed around on AGF. Your description is much more eloquent than mine could be. I will say that most veteran acoustic players know, or should know, that the wood changes over time and the sound will often improve with age. Perhaps it is instant gratification but I'm always surprised at people who will play a guitar for 15 minutes in the store, or buy online, keep the guitar for a week and decide they don't like the sound without considering the longer term perspective you mention. I bought a Collings OM twenty years ago. I loved the big and bright sound then but I knew it would change over time and it has been such a fun ride to see, feel, and hear the guitar age. First impressions are important but the long term perspective should also be considered. I hope some others here will take your advice.

"What we are always reminding our customers is that while the bass response is a thing that flowers and develops over time, treble response does not, in most cases. Typically, you will hear more warmth and depth developing in the bass of a guitar as you continue to play it, but the trebles never really "ascend" from where they are in the beginning. That's why it is important to have high end clarity early in the life of a guitar. It makes sense, right? As the thing settles in, as it loosens, the bass becomes more comfortable with itself, warms up, the trebles mellow a little bit and the whole thing comes into focus. Bill Collings understood this all too well, and that's why he built his guitars just a little bit more robust, with a high end that would mellow over time, but never fail the player. It was and is kind of a "long view" perspective of building a dependable, balanced guitar."

[ty1173]

So much valuable info has been posted here already and I would just like to add a bit based on my own experience with my Bourgeois AT Signature D. I have only played one or two Collings and it was a looong time ago at Rudy's in NYC. So my memory does not serve me well there. I also have not played another Bourgeois so YMMV as far as consistency between them goes. But I believe from what I have heard that they are consistent, especially given that Dana voices all the tops. It is kind of a conundrum for me though because I live in the NYC area and I have not found a lot of Bourgeois guitars around.

Someone said and I can't remember who, maybe Greven? But that your guitar will sound it's worst on the day you first pick it up. But my Bourgeois dreadnought has sounded incredible from day 1. Got it from Soundpure (thanks Robinson!) five or so years ago and it continues to impress me. Has a super comfy (to me) very slight V satin neck. The whole guitar resonates like a speaker. I dk if it is the torrefied Adi top or the Madagascar back and sides but the thing is loud and rumbles! This is exactly what I was looking for. It's a bit different than a Martin D28, I think based on how Dana scallops the braces - think a bit more balanced and less boom, but by no means is there a shortage of bass. The highs are super resonant and mids are balanced as well. A great recording guitar and in equal parts performing too. An awesome guitar. Totally inspired me from day one.

[gmel555]

They are both GREAT luthiers regarding fit & finish, tone and playability, etc. However, like others I believe generalizations exist that lead some players more to Collings and others more to Bourgeois. That's not to say an individual model or guitar might cross the line into the other camp though.

I own one Bourgeois and have just ordered a second. My experience with Collings is limited to a couple dozen or so "trials" in shops over the years. I think many of the statements above re tonal differences (and neck profiles) fit my impressions. Bourgeois a bit warmer, more complex, Collings a bit more high end, fundamental, focused. I have not heard a generalized difference in volume. I can easily see how the general differences in tone could each fit different playing styles and "ears". Neither preference better or worse, just different. I've read references to Collings tone evolving over time as the guitar ages; unfortunately, it's something I haven't had the pleasure of experiencing directly. On this last point I really wish I had a friend who owned a couple of maturing Collings that I could continue to play overtime, but alas I do not have that pleasure.

I find the Bourgeois neck profile to feel somewhat unique (like a shallow, slimmer V) and I like it a lot. Collings profile feels a bit chunkier but it wouldn't stop me from a purchase (I have two Martins with mod V profiles). I guess the main reason I gravitate to Bourg is I'm in the "Martin tone" camp, and then secondarily the Bourg neck profile. I am still hopeful of playing that Collings one day that makes me say. "Ah that's what it's all about". I'm sure they exist -probably in great numbers- but my access to Collings examples is limited.

[Rev Roy]

Love this thread. Such great info. I’m new to the boutique bandwagon. Living in rural Oklahoma I simply don’t have access to shops with the highend stuff. But a couple months ago I was dropping off a new J-45 for a setup when the sales guys said: “Have you ever played a Collings?” Shop had just become a Collings dealer and gotten their first guitar, a D1. I played it for a moment or two then handed it back saying, “Tight and bright.”

But despite my first experience being less than stellar I could never get that guitar out of my mind. Such superb craftsmanship and feel. I knew the new guitar tightness would fade. But the brightness?

Then about a month later my CME guy said he could offer me a great deal on a used Collings. I took the chance and snatched it at a great price (see sig). It’s one from the Traditional Series with an Adi top. What an incredible instrument! It’s anything but tight and bright. The previous owner spend years breaking in the Adi top for me. So now I have a guitar that’s robust, balanced and, most of all, musical. So fun and inspiring to play.

That experience emboldened me to do a long distance swap with a fellow AGFer last week - my Martin custom OM for his Bourgeois (see sig). It arrived yesterday and I’ve spent this morning getting to know her. Wow! Again, getting a used guitar not only saved me lots of dough it got me a nicely broken in guitar. And the baked top doesn’t hurt. This one is more Martinesque...good bass (but not overpowering), warm, round and loud even with the light Elixirs it arrived with (I’ll soon swap them for Santa Cruz Mids).

I couldn’t be happier. Gotta love buying used...

[LakewoodM32Fan]

Originally Posted by gmel555

I am still hopeful of playing that Collings one day that makes me say. "Ah that's what it's all about". I'm sure they exist -probably in great numbers- but my access to Collings examples is limited.

LOL I'm in the exact opposite boat. No shortage of Collings dealers with inventory around me (hence how I was able to audition quite a few before choosing mine), but the closest Bourgeois dealer is 130 miles away...

[mawmow]

I stumbled on this video recently :

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...&v=Y2X4_0Pit70

[zmf]

Originally Posted by brencat

Both Collings and Bourgeois use a bolt on neck design, and there absolutely is a difference in feel and playability (to me) between brands using this construction method and those using the traditional glued dovetail neck join like Martin and Santa Cruz. The Collings and Bourgeois necks feel rigid...like the resonance and vibrations are significantly curtailed as they leave the body and enter the neck, whereas on a Martin and especially Santa Cruz, the entire guitar including the neck is 'alive.' Santa Cruzes and some Martin Authentics also have a certain "flex" feel when you depress a string to fret a note...like when you bounce on a trampoline or draw back on a compound bow, there is tension and then it relaxes. I've yet to feel that flex in any bolt on neck guitar that I've owned from Collings, Bourgeois, or Goodall. But my Santa Cruzes -- especially the 1934D, have that tactile feedback in spades.

Bren -- This dovetail/flex thing is a bold statement. I think I know what you mean about the Santa Cruz "feel" -- there is something more "organic" about it.
Hoover has strong opinions about the use of the dovetail joint, but I don't recall that flex is one he puts forth. I got the impression that he considers the neck, attached by a dovetail joint, as an integral part of instrument that contributes to tone.

I don't understand the concept of a flexible neck. Theoretically, it would be out of tune if you depressed a string and the neck flexed. Realistically, would the neck actually bend? And would a dovetail or bolt-on make a difference in whether the neck could potentially flex -- they've all got truss rods.

I'm not jumping down your throat here. It's just that the topic comes up every now and then, and I can't quite grasp the concept.

[brencat]

Originally Posted by zmf

Bren -- This dovetail/flex thing is a bold statement. I think I know what you mean about the Santa Cruz "feel" -- there is something more "organic" about it.
Hoover has strong opinions about the use of the dovetail joint, but I don't recall that flex is one he puts forth. I got the impression that he considers the neck, attached by a dovetail joint, as an integral part of instrument that contributes to tone.

I don't understand the concept of a flexible neck. Theoretically, it would be out of tune if you depressed a string and the neck flexed. Realistically, would the neck actually bend? And would a dovetail or bolt-on make a difference in whether the neck could potentially flex -- they've all got truss rods.

I'm only describing a tactile difference that is very noticeable to me. Perhaps if you were close enough to try my D/PW and 1934D you might understand better what I'm feeling by way of playability. Obviously you would be correct about being out of tune if what I feel is actually happening. My Santa Cruzes and D-18A 1937 were also full hide glue construction builds, so maybe that weighs into the feel thing too, not sure?

[zmf]

Originally Posted by brencat

I'm only describing a tactile difference that is very noticeable to me. Perhaps if you were close enough to try my D/PW and 1934D you might understand better what I'm feeling by way of playability.

My go-to is a Santa Cruz VS, so I know what you mean. I think the feel is why I like it so much. Think part of it might be the light weight, making them feel more lively?

Hmm -- what if it really is because of the dovetail joint? Naw -- that myth was destroyed some time ago, right?

[Tnfiddler]

Maybe we’re just all wound too tight and like to pick apart all the intricacies of acoustic guitars instead of just enjoying them for what they are. I think when you get to the level of Bourgeois, Collings, Santa Cruz guitars, that the differences are minute and only noticed by serious enthusiasts! I think Volume is the 1 thing 75% of guitar players notice and it’s the 25% who notice, heavy bass, bright highs and scooped mids, clarity, note separation, etc. and those 75% probably enjoy their guitars more because they play the strings off of them and don’t sweat the small stuff!

[zmf]

Originally Posted by Tnfiddler

I think when you get to the level of Bourgeois, Collings, Santa Cruz guitars, that the differences are minute and only noticed by serious enthusiasts!

Perhaps the opposite is true?
By the time you work your way to the boutiques, and prices becomes steeper, you focus more on the differences between makes. You pay more attention when A/B'ing guitars. The differences are no longer minute. As the title of this thread and many others would suggest.

And your recent threads on Bourgeois' and Martins seem to counter your statement. Guess it comes down to who's a "serious enthusiast".