Improvising over VI7 II7 V7 I Progression

[mellowman]

I'm trying to learn how to improvise over swing chord progressions and would love to know how you would approach improvising over a VI7 II7 V7 I progression (e.g. E7 A7 D7 G). I can hack out something by ear, given enough time, but I'd be interested to know how you would approach this in terms of which scales you would play over each chord.

Thanks!

[bishopdm]

Working backward from tonic, you might try:
G: G-major
D7: D-mixolydian (same pitch collection as G-major)
A7: A-mixolydian
E7: E-mixolydian (flat 13)

If you follow this, the majority of the notes will remain in G-major. The only notes that will not remain in G-major are necessary for the chord (C# for A7 and G# for E7). You could also disregard the flat 13 on that E7 and just play the common E-mixolydian, thereby keeping all the dominant-type scales consistent.

Other scales are certainly possible.

[gtr1x]

Lydian dominants work well on secondary dominant chords.

R 2 3 #4 5 6 b7 R

mark

[min7b5]

Originally Posted by mellowman

I'm trying to learn how to improvise over swing chord progressions and would love to know how you would approach improvising over a VI7 II7 V7 I progression (e.g. E7 A7 D7 G). I can hack out something by ear, given enough time, but I'd be interested to know how you would approach this in terms of which scales you would play over each chord.

Thanks!

I don't personally play scales very much. For those chords I would likely be thinking in terms of the following arpeggios, perhaps strung together with the chromatic scale, and always with a melody in mind:

For E7 I'd probably play G#-7b5 arpeggio.
For A7 I'd be thinking C#-7b5
For D7 I’d play notes from F#-7b5
Since you said swing, I’ll assume G6 for the G chord in which case I’m thinking E-7, but if it where G maj7 I’d likely go for B-7.

[gh1]

Interesting Eric. For those of us, like me, who don't have a strong handle on theory could you explain the relation between those arpeggios and the corresponding chords?

_____
gh1

[Howard Klepper]

You can safely treat each of the dom7 chords in the progression as a V chord in the corresponding major key, and the G as a I chord. The most fundamental way to signal the changes in your solo line is to play the 3rd of the new chord on its first beat. Of course, that's just a starting point.

[min7b5]

Originally Posted by gh1

Interesting Eric. For those of us, like me, who don't have a strong handle on theory could you explain the relation between those arpeggios and the corresponding chords?

_____
gh1

Sure.

So an arpeggio is the notes of a chord played one after another instead of all at once. Many jazz students in particular learn arpeggios in one form or another as a way to play over chords changes. For example, typically they are taught to play a C major seventh arpeggio over a major C major seventh chord. This works great because you’re training your ear and your hand to hear and play notes that spell out the chord.

To back up, the problem with a predominantly scale approach, and the reason most of the jazz greats didn’t really think way (though most teachers insist on teaching it anyway) is that it’s much harder to play over the chords in a way that really underscores the harmony of the moment. In other words, while the chords D-7 G7 Cmaj7 are clearly all in the key of C major, just playing the C major over all over them sounds unfocussed and ultimately uninteresting -though a little of that can string things together fairly well. But the real goodies are in realizing that while all of those chords may in fact be in the key of C, during the actual moment that the D-7 chord in heard for example, certain notes outline that chord better than others. Using an arpeggio, or least having an awareness of it, automatically trims the fat and gets to the notes that really define the chord.

So anyway, as I said before, a good beginning step is try to match some arpeggios to chords. So for Mellowman’s chords one might try an E7 arpeggio for the E7 chord, and an A7 arpeggio for the A7 chord etc. But, as with playing chords, you can also try some substitutions to get some other notes that might outline the chord in a more interesting way. So for example by using a G#-7b5 arpeggio (G#,B,D,F#) over the E7 chord you’re hearing the following notes:

G# is the third of the E7 chord which is arguably the most important note to define the chord. Weather you play jazz, blues, or bluegrass if you always know where your third is you can make strong melodic phrases... Bill Monroe, Bach, Tony Rice, BB King, Charley Parker, Django.... Eddie Van Halen for that matter, the list never ends..... all nailed that third left and right in melodic lines

B is the next note of the G# arp, and that is the fifth of E7, which also a nice chord tone.

D is next, which is the seventh of E7. The seventh is up there with third in terms of importance to my ear. Many jazz students are taught that the thirds and seventh are the “guide tones”, and they’ll go though a standard tune and try to just play all the guide tones. That’s a very useful exercise.

F# is the fourth and final note of the G#-7b5 arpeggio and it is the ninth of the E7 chord. This is just a nice bonus note that sounds good to me.

One thing you might notice is that there’s no root. In this case E. This is one of the main reasons I don’t use the “right” arp over the right chords, or use scales for the most part -I’m trying to avoid the root. It’s not that I don't play them at all, but for the most part I don’t care for that sound. I feel like playing the root kills the forward motion of a melody. If you analyze a lot of classic jazz solos you notice how little the root is really played.

One thing you can try in order to hear this kind of thing is to record your self playing, very very slowly, but in time, the chords D-7 G7 Cmaj7. Then play it back and try playing a Fmaj7 arp over the D-7, B-7b5 arp over the G7, and lastly a E-7 over the Cmaj7. Notice how those notes sound over those chords. I personally really like that sound and feel a lot. But you can try other substitutions, these just happen to ring my bell, but the possibilities are almost endless. And of course you can weave in the notes of the C major scale too -I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, it’s just note remotely my main approach. Once your ear and hand get a sense of where these notes are it’s very easy to just weave in the chromatic scale.... But the most important thing in my mind is to think melodically. Singing or humming the notes as you play will likely force you to put the commas and periods into your lines that really bring it to life and make it sound like something.

I hope that makes sense.

[min7b5]

So I just recorded myself playing the D-7 to G7 to Cmaj7 progression twice and then overdubbed myself playing the arpeggios Fmaj7, B-7b5, and E-7 over the first pass so you can hear what I was getting at above. Then the second time I dressed it up a little by just randomly grabbing surrounding notes, i.e. the chromatic scale and adding to those arps.

You can here that here: http://www.ericskye.com/music/TwoFiveOne.mp3

I guess I digressed a bit from Melloman’s six ,two, five, one question, But hopefully you hear a little about what I’m saying in regards to using chord substitution ideas melodically.

[mellowman]

Thanks guys. This is great stuff.

It's really good to know about the importance of emphasizing the third as pointed out by Howard and Eric.

Also, Eric, thanks for the tip about using chord substitution arpeggios. And thanks for the cool example clip. If I've got this right you are basically centering your improvising around an arpeggio of the third, fifth, seventh notes of the chord being played and adding a ninth for flavor. And, avoiding the root. Very cool. I'm going to try working on this. If it comes out to sound one tenth as good as your playing I'll be extremely happy!

I'm basically an old rock and roll guy trying to fake my way through some theory and swing improvising and this is really helpful.

Thanks again to all of you.

[Aaron Smith]

Eric- that was a really wonderful explanation, thanks for taking the time. I think I followed it pretty well, and I understand not wanting to stop the progress of the solo by playing the I. Does this translate into some basic, memorable rules for chord substitutions? I would have a pretty hard time remembering to always play a II#7b5 over a VI, for instance.

[min7b5]

I just made another quick clip because I wanted to give an example of what I was talking about in the context of Mellowman’s question.

So I recorded myself playing his changes, E7 A7 D7 G6, twice, then overdubbed myself playing the G#-7b5, C#-7b5, F#-7b5, and E-7. I was very careful not play anything but those notes this time, so it’s a little plane jane, but hopefully you can hear how they outline the chords fairly well. From there you can spice it up..

http://www.ericskye.com/music/SixTwoFiveOne.mp3

Originally Posted by mellowman

...thanks for the tip about using chord substitution arpeggios. And thanks for the cool example clip. If I've got this right you are basically centering your improvising around an arpeggio of the third, fifth, seventh notes of the chord being played and adding a ninth for flavor. And, avoiding the root. Very cool. I'm going to try working on this....

Cool beans

Originally Posted by Aaron Smith

Eric- that was a really wonderful explanation, thanks for taking the time. I think I followed it pretty well, and I understand not wanting to stop the progress of the solo by playing the I. Does this translate into some basic, memorable rules for chord substitutions? I would have a pretty hard time remembering to always play a II#7b5 over a VI, for instance.

Yeah, I’m actually working on book that will hopefully outline this stuff in a clear way. But yeah, in the end it takes a while to be able to do it on the fly. However, do think it’s overall a pretty easy way to generate single note statements that get down into the changes. I can usually get students making lines they’re happy with pretty quick. I personally think it’s a lot easier than scales. I mean, it’s easy to figure out what scales work over what groups of chords, but getting them to not sound like scales is whole other matter... some people are great at it, but I'm not one of them

[Bern]

At first glance, I would probably treat the E7 as a minor. So, Em A7 (D major) going into D7 G (G major), trying to emphasize C# and C change. However, it all depends of what style and/or melody line would fit.

[Steve Z]

Most excellent thread - one of the best I have read in a long time. Thanks to all for your comments, insight, and instruction!

[IainDearg]

If these changes are played reasonably quickly, since there is no tonic harmony present your improvisation can be as chromatic as you like, without much thought to scales or arpeggios. Otherwise I, too, would think in terms of V7 arpeggios with +/-5s and +/- 9s for flavour - or bebop runs and the like.

[mellowman]

Originally Posted by min7b5

I just made another quick clip because I wanted to give an example of what I was talking about in the context of Mellowman’s question.

So I recorded myself playing his changes, E7 A7 D7 G6, twice, then overdubbed myself playing the G#-7b5, C#-7b5, F#-7b5, and E-7. I was very careful not play anything but those notes this time, so it’s a little plane jane, but hopefully you can hear how they outline the chords fairly well. From there you can spice it up..

http://www.ericskye.com/music/SixTwoFiveOne.mp3



Cool beans



Yeah, I’m actually working on book that will hopefully outline this stuff in a clear way. But yeah, in the end it takes a while to be able to do it on the fly. However, do think it’s overall a pretty easy way to generate single note statements that get down into the changes. I can usually get students making lines they’re happy with pretty quick. I personally think it’s a lot easier than scales. I mean, it’s easy to figure out what scales work over what groups of chords, but getting them to not sound like scales is whole other matter... some people are great at it, but I'm not one of them

Thanks again Eric. This really helps. I'd be interested to hear when your book comes out. You can count on one customer right here!