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  #1  
Old 01-24-2011, 10:25 PM
Rod True Rod True is offline
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Default Rounded (Semi-Hemispherical) or Beveled fret ends? String offset from the nut edge

So the last guitar I did, I rounded the fret ends instead of beveling like most folks do. I stared a thread on the OLF with links to a tutorial for making the rounded fret ends. This thread has become quite interesting in that there seems to be some degree of opinion regarding the difference in fret space (real estate as some have branded it) between a rounded fret end and a beveled fret end with strong correlation given to string spacing from the nut edge to the E-e strings. Most factory guitars (and many custom makers) use a 1/8" offset from the nut edge to the center of the e string, yet some use much less spacing. This is really where the discussion has lead but all started based on the slight difference in real estate on the fret end between the beveled end and the rounded end (was calculated to be between 0.005-0.010" less edge space for the rounded end) with the rounded end being a smoother drop off.

So, I thought that a players forum would be a good place to bring this up as well.

Now I have to admit that I'm not a great player by any means so take this with a rather large salt lick.
I found the rounded fret ends to be more comfortable when traveling up and down the fretboard, never once feeling like I had any tangible difference in "real estate" on the fret between the e string and the edge of the fret. It just felt like a smoother fret end which was a joy to play on. Mind you, I'm more of a chord strummer vs finger picker so that might be the difference.

So, those who have tried guitars with rounded fret ends as well as beveled fret ends, do you notice any difference in your strings falling off the edge of the fret more with one style or the other?

Coupled with this, how many really notice a difference with string spacing between the fretboard edge and the path of the e string (or E string if that's important to you also)?

Us custom makers seem to be all over the map with the likes of you the player (at least those who posted on the OLF thread). So give us the goods. Closer to the edge of the fretboard for the e string? 1/8" is good? 3/32" is fine? Or something in between? Or you really don't notice the difference much.

Thanks
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Old 01-24-2011, 11:27 PM
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Larry Pattis Larry Pattis is offline
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Here are my deep-seated thoughts on this.

I prefer as vertical a fret-end as possible, and a semi-hemi treatment may indeed be the best way to do this.

I am *very* concerned with wanting all the distance I can get between the E strings and the edges of the fingerboard...more so on the high E...although I like good space on both. Addressing this with the fret edge finish is a good start. Most fret-edges do lose too much for me with anything but a very vertical (or semi-hemi) finish.

...but this is only the beginning of the conversation with me...

Rather than give you the "inset" numbers I like, however, I prefer to just give full set-up...because it also involves the overall width of the fingerboard/neck at the 12th fret.

Lay these numbers out, and I think you'll be surprised:

1) Overall nut width = 1-13/16"
2) E-to-E nut spacing, center to center = 1-1/2"
3) Bridge spacing = 2-1/4"
4) Overall width of 'board @ 12th fret = 2-5/16"


The biggest surprise may be the 12th fret width, especially vs. the bridge spacing...I like a wiiiide number there, and I have never seen any builder use a 12th fret width wider than the bridge spacing...but that's exactly what I want.

The other surprise is that the nut-spacing is about middle of the road for a narrower 1-3/4" nut. Well, these are the numbers I like, and they give a certain symmetry to the strings in relation to the edges of the fingerboard...all up and down the board.

Place the bridge (and the nut) so that the E-string centers are equidistant to the edges of the fingerboard, and with the above numbers you've got my "inset"...and that inset will get even a little deeper as one goes up the neck.

So that's one crazy-man's perspective on this....hard-won information that *I* think makes a guitar more playable (and it does, at least for me!)...greater possibilities in attacking the high E string, side-to-side vibrato, just a more comfortable overall feel....again, IMO.

I believe that the overall 12th fret width should be, at the very least, the equal of the bridge spacing. Some guitars are built this way, but not a lot of them.

...and if a few builders would take the chance on my wild concept that a wider-than-bridge-spacing overall-12th-fret-width is not only possible but *desirable,* well, then more players would get a chance to try this configuration. I predict that many, many players would love the way this feels.

Okay, hope this gives folks something to think about (again)...
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  #3  
Old 01-24-2011, 11:51 PM
WhistlingFish WhistlingFish is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R. True View Post
So, I thought that a players forum would be a good place to bring this up as well.
Rod, as obvious as this sounds to me now, it took me a long time to realise it. Luthier's forums such as the OLF are certainly a fantastic resource for the aspiring luthier, but there's nothing like seeking opinions directly from the people whose preferences really matter, i.e., the players themselves! In fact, I'm surprised that more of the familiar names from the OLF don't frequent this forum and seek the views of the players here.
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Old 01-25-2011, 12:03 AM
Kent Chasson Kent Chasson is offline
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Rod, I'll let Larry and any other players address the setback issue but I would say that it seems like you are making an assumption that all bevels are the same and all rounded ends are the same. Unless you are talking about perfectly hemispherical ends, either end treatment can be as shallow or as steep as you want.

I round my ends but stop short of making them true hemispheres. My goal is to soften all corners just enough to feel good. The main reason I see to round rather than bevel is to knock off the sharp corners that sometimes get exposed if the fingerboard shrinks in low humidity. Not that anyone lets their guitars get that dry
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Old 01-25-2011, 12:45 AM
Rod True Rod True is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent Chasson View Post
Rod, I'll let Larry and any other players address the setback issue but I would say that it seems like you are making an assumption that all bevels are the same and all rounded ends are the same. Unless you are talking about perfectly hemispherical ends, either end treatment can be as shallow or as steep as you want.
Good point Kent, and thanks for bringing it up. My guess is that most factories probably bevel to a standard (we have standards in guitar making right ) 30* bevel. And I've seen some pictures of a few makers who really seem to round over the fret end a fair amount. So my guess is that like many other aspects of guitar making, there are many different views on what a good fret end should be.

Having only done the rounded end treatment once, I really want to learn what players want so that I can get it right (or as close to right as possible).

I know that everyone has their preference, but if we keep asking the players, we'll have a better understanding of what those preferences are.

Thanks again for your insight, It's greatly appreciated.
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Old 01-25-2011, 03:27 AM
archtopGeek archtopGeek is offline
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The OLF thread referred by OP is at...

http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewt...=10101&t=30776

just in case...

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Last edited by archtopGeek; 01-25-2011 at 03:37 AM.
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Old 01-25-2011, 05:41 AM
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Bob Womack Bob Womack is offline
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Except in the case of bound fret ends, my luthier makes seven cuts with the file to shape the fret ends. They look pretty hemispherical to me, in fact.

Bob
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Old 01-25-2011, 06:11 AM
Rollie Rollie is offline
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[/QUOTE]
1) Overall nut width = 1-13/16"
2) E-to-E nut spacing, center to center = 1-1/2"
3) Bridge spacing = 2-1/4"
4) Overall width of 'board @ 12th fret = 2-5/16"
...and if a few builders would take the chance on my wild concept that a wider-than-bridge-spacing overall-12th-fret-width is not only possible but *desirable,* well, then more players would get a chance to try this configuration. I predict that many, many players would love the way this feels.
[/QUOTE]
What we need is a Larry Pattis Signature Model (LPSM) so we can all try a guitar with these specs.....
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  #9  
Old 01-25-2011, 06:38 AM
murrmac123 murrmac123 is offline
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Good to see this thread here, Rod, do you think maybe it would have been a good idea to put it on the main forum, where it would get more exposure ?

I guess you could always ask the mods to move it, if you agree ...
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Old 01-25-2011, 08:17 AM
Rod True Rod True is offline
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Ya, I was wondering about that, but I thought that these ideas were pretty custom. Really though, I'd love to hear from players who have experience with these ideas.
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:31 AM
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cotten cotten is offline
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This seems like a very "custom shop" kind of option, so I have some misgivings about moving this thread over to "General Acoustic Guitar Discussion." Still, I understand that we'd like to have input from players who are experienced or interested in this issue.

I've left this thread here where it rightly belongs, but began a thread about it there with a link to this thread. http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...31#post2491531 Hopefully, this will accomplish the goal nicely.

cotten
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:41 AM
enalnitram enalnitram is offline
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Rod, I saw your post on OLF. I'm been playing for a long time, I was even serious about for a while, as a pro, and everything. I've even experienced slippage on some guitars, off the fret ends. but I didn't think twice about your method, on my latest, and I love the result, mainly because it was a 1 3/4" nut and getting a little scrunchier there was kinda negligible. I think it's a great idea. Had it been 1 11/16" I might've thought twice about it. So nothing but smiles here.
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:52 AM
lifebreath lifebreath is offline
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Fret ends: as long as their not razer sharp and poking out, they're fine with me. Honestly, in all my years playing, I've never noticed the fret ends while playing, except on a few electrics where the high E string was too close to the end and might tend to slide down over the end when bending, especially if strung with a lighter gauge. I can't really remember the last time this was an issue, though.
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:01 AM
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rick-slo rick-slo is offline
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Players, if they express any specific preferences at all, will vary in what they say they want in spacing, widths, etc.
As a builder you would be taking a chance going too far afield from normal specs if it is based on what a particular buyer
says especially if it is based on some theoretical specs they have never tried. Staying in the range of traditional specs,
eg what Martin or Collings are doing, is safer and probably a good idea for your pocket book. Your call as a builder of course.

Fret ends rounded or first beveled and then rounded is a continuum, not just A or B, as there is usually some degree of taper.
Approaching a true hemispherical shape almost always results in a knobby feel as you slide your hand up and down the fretboard.
Too beveled and the string may slide off the fret too easily. Adjusting string setback from the edge helps reach a good
compromise. If you want to approach a hemispherical fret end I would suggest you at least also use a bound fretboard as
that helps the feel quite a bit.
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Last edited by rick-slo; 01-25-2011 at 12:08 PM.
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  #15  
Old 01-25-2011, 12:28 PM
lifebreath lifebreath is offline
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Addendum: As a player, I would rather have a nice bevel.
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