V-Class the full video.

[wooglins]

VCLASS full story with Andy and Tony. Looks like it was just posted and is a it over an hour in length.

https://youtu.be/_Hy6dy82l1M

[Jeremy]

Thanks.

To save a click:

[ii Cybershot ii]

How to avoid directly answering tough questions: bury the answer in a 1 hour and 17 minute video.

[Rmz76]

Originally Posted by Jeremy

Thanks.

To save a click:

Finished watching and I appreciate this video. It clears things up in terms of helping me get a better understanding of Andy's mindset. Around 1:12:30 Andy says some things that bring the discussion back down... It's also a reality check, he's a master luthier and his challenge is finding ways to keep Taylor's production cost down and move the needle at the same time... Given the manufacturing processes available to Taylor, he feels he took X-bracing as far as he could and this gives something new to evolve Taylor's concept of what the acoustic guitar should be. Andy is coming from a very focused perspective and I don't think he's being entirely honest with himself about some of the trade offs.

Alamo's Music City has an excellent A-B test video of the X-braced 2017 914ce to V-class braced 914ce. From the comments it seems a lot of players are hearing the same things I am in the V-class braced 914ce, there's some warmth missing there. Although I might not have described it so well, to me this sounded like a mid-range scoop on the V-class models. It's something I noticed right away from open chord strumming that seemed more pronounced when using a capo. It's a sort of thinning of tone. You can have long sustain and volume and a very thin timbre, and unfortunately I think that's the sacrifice.... Don't misunderstand, I think these V-class guitars do sound very good it's just compared with their X-braced Taylor counterparts you can really hear that there is a trade off.



Pegheadproduction's put up a video comparing measured sustain decay and interesting enough, they found the X braced 914ce had better sustain than it's V-class braced counterpart. They did find that the K24ce V-class braced had slightly better sustain than the X-class braced K24, but it was very minimal. Interesting enough, in my first hand test I preferred the V-class based K24ce, but if I had to leave the store that day with one of the Taylor guitars tested, it would not have been a V-Class braced Taylor, it would have been the X-braced 914ce.

[beninma]

Taylors are not rare people need to get over the drama and just try one of these guitars out.

It is really easy to hear the difference, I think some of the online demos are contrived and can be misleading. For example some of them don't play the same exact material on both types of bracing. I want to say Taylor's marketing does this to some extent, and the road show I went to last week they definitely did not do A/B tests of the guitars to show how the exact same material sounded on X vs V.

But you can instantly hear the difference in person, and they will happily let you play the guitars, so go play them and decide for yourself.

I am kind of holding the opinion the V-braced guitars sound more like a clean electric guitar in some ways. A lot of solid body guitars do not lose volume/sustain/tone as you move up the neck the same way an acoustic does. The V-braced guitar to me sounds like it retains more volume/sustain/tone as you move up the neck compared to an X-braced guitar. Whether that means it 's better for any given piece of music is a way more complex question. I think you can argue it has a different character and whether you like that character is totally opinion. (You could argue it has less character I think, and character can be a good thing.)

[wooglins]

Originally Posted by Rmz76

Finished watching and I appreciate this video. It clears things up in terms of helping me get a better understanding of Andy's mindset. Around 1:12:30 Andy says some things that bring the discussion back down... It's also a reality check, he's a master luthier and his challenge is finding ways to keep Taylor's production cost down and move the needle at the same time... Given the manufacturing processes available to Taylor, he feels he took X-bracing as far as he could and this gives something new to evolve Taylor's concept of what the acoustic guitar should be. Andy is coming from a very focused perspective and I don't think he's being entirely honest with himself about some of the trade offs.

Alamo's Music City has an excellent A-B test video of the X-braced 2017 914ce to V-class braced 914ce. From the comments it seems a lot of players are hearing the same things I am in the V-class braced 914ce, there's some warmth missing there. Although I might not have described it so well, to me this sounded like a mid-range scoop on the V-class models. It's something I noticed right away from open chord strumming that seemed more pronounced when using a capo. It's a sort of thinning of tone. You can have long sustain and volume and a very thin timbre, and unfortunately I think that's the sacrifice.... Don't misunderstand, I think these V-class guitars do sound very good it's just compared with their X-braced Taylor counterparts you can really hear that there is a trade off.



Pegheadproduction's put up a video comparing measured sustain decay and interesting enough, they found the X braced 914ce had better sustain than it's V-class braced counterpart. They did find that the K24ce V-class braced had slightly better sustain than the X-class braced K24, but it was very minimal. Interesting enough, in my first hand test I preferred the V-class based K24ce, but if I had to leave the store that day with one of the Taylor guitars tested, it would not have been a V-Class braced Taylor, it would have been the X-braced 914ce.


The thing every player has to keep in mind is that Taylor is trying to innovate, they've created something new and they are (and should be) very happy with giving the acoustic guitar world something new.... Players should keep in mind Taylor's history of clever marketing and the reality that it would be a conflict of interest for Taylor to point out any weakness in their design. Likewise, retailers need to move product to stay in business. On-line vloggers like Tony Polecastro would probably be unwise to be too critical of Taylor's design. If you loose access to these sort of first hand interviews with Taylor elites that will harm on-line subscribers which hurts ad revenue.... You have to step back a bit to be objective and decide if it's right for you.

I think the neck may be a much bigger deal than you give it credit for. There is nothing, and I mean nothing better than a setup done with the neck as opposed to sanding the saddle or replacing it with a taller one. The sheer joy of getting a guitar that has the standard setup back in 30 minutes and the action being lower or higher without any change to the angle on the saddle is amazing. There is a reason why some of the most successful boutique builders now use a similar design and it is not to save time or money in the build process.

[Tico]

As much as I try, I just can't listen to Andy Powers talk very long.

His brand of charisma creeps me out.
I go by the reasonableness of what people say, not by how impressively and seductively they say it.

Clearly he has zillions of followers who take what he says on faith.
Me, I need hard evidence to believe things, not fluffy, evasive, feel-good gobbletebgook.

[Rmz76]

Originally Posted by wooglins

I think the neck may be a much bigger deal than you give it credit for. There is nothing, and I mean nothing better than a setup done with the neck as opposed to sanding the saddle or replacing it with a taller one. The sheer joy of getting a guitar that has the standard setup back in 30 minutes and the action being lower or higher without any change to the angle on the saddle is amazing. There is a reason why some of the most successful boutique builders now use a similar design and it is not to save time or money in the build process.

Does anyone ever get their guitar back in 30 mins

[IndyHD28]

I haven’t played it yet...and that will be a Make-or-break buying decision....but, as a Martin-only Guy, I am completely enamored of the (Andy Powers) K14ce Builders Edition. It’s not just V-bracing. The ergonomic innovations are superb as is the finish and the attractiveness of a Torrified spruce over a Koa. This is a sensational design. I just hope it sounds as good as it looks. Congrats to Taylor for this gorgeous, innovative design and build.

[Mkel12]

I bought the 914ce V-Class a couple of months ago from Ted at LA Guitar Sales. It is an amazing instrument. No regrets... my favorite acoustic of all-time, and I have owned many Martin, Taylor, Gibson, Collings, Cole Clark, Maton and even a Goodall.

There is something magical about the new 914ce. I don't attribute it solely to the bracing, but I do find myself reaching for this Taylor every time I play now.

I got caught up in the original marketing hype and all the drama that followed, spending way too much time reading, thinking and analyzing versus just going to play one. But now that I decided to take the plunge, I am so happy I did. ~ Mike

[der Geist]

Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii

How to avoid directly answering tough questions: bury the answer in a 1 hour and 17 minute video.

This!!!!!!

[N+1]

Originally Posted by Rmz76

Does anyone ever get their guitar back in 30 mins

Possibly not. In my experience (I've had several of my Taylors' necks adjusted to suit me perfectly) it's more likely to take about 20 minutes.

Originally Posted by wooglins

I think the neck may be a much bigger deal than you give it credit for. There is nothing, and I mean nothing better than a setup done with the neck as opposed to sanding the saddle or replacing it with a taller one. The sheer joy of getting a guitar that has the standard setup back in 30 minutes and the action being lower or higher without any change to the angle on the saddle is amazing.

That's my experience too. For me, the simplicity of the neck adjustment is a highly significant asset, which you've perfectly described.

[N+1]

Originally Posted by Tico

Me, I need hard evidence to believe things, not fluffy, evasive, feel-good gobbletebgook.

But doesn't he try to provide that evidence, in the video? He seems to do his best to demonstrate the results of what he's done, especially showing the purity of intonation high up the fretboard. I don't think we're being asked to believe anything - we're just being invited to listen.

I should add that I've played several V-class braced Taylors now, and I can't say they are quite my sort of thing (for reasons other than intonation and volume), so I don't think I have a bias one way or the other.

[Kerbie]

Please keep this thread polite...

[ntotoro]

Originally Posted by N+1

But doesn't he try to provide that evidence, in the video? He seems to do his best to demonstrate the results of what he's done, especially showing the purity of intonation high up the fretboard. I don't think we're being asked to believe anything - we're just being invited to listen.

I should add that I've played several V-class braced Taylors now, and I can't say they are quite my sort of thing (for reasons other than intonation and volume), so I don't think I have a bias one way or the other.

Going back full-circle, that was the problem may people had. Powers said the bracing affected intonation... people said that was gobbledeegook and how could that be... Powers essentially replied "Well... that depends on how you define 'intonation'," and so it went.

My 000-18GE with an uncompensated saddle intonated fine as far as I could reach up the fingerboard. The scary thing about these guitars is how the notes seemed to have no girth once you went up the neck. It was as if the "substance" was ripped out of them, for lack of a better word.

Edit... yeah... I guess when taken in the proverbial out-of-context, that imagery was pretty bad and I didn't catch it LOL! Sorry.

Nick