Advice on Trying to Upgrade My Nylon String Guitar

[Earwitness]

I am mainly a steel-string fingerstyle player, somewhere out in the middle of the "intermediate" ocean, with no classical training whatsoever, although I do hold my right hand somewhat like a classical player does (maybe). Almost everything I do is my own compositions or arrangements, played only for myself and my own enjoyment. I also write folkish songs and sing--well, sometimes for other people, too, I guess.

Anyway, in the past three years, I have changed from playing a dreadnought, to then also loving a great parlor guitar I have, to now having two lower-end nylons--both of which I really like to play. (They both came to me sort of on their own.) One is an Ovation crossover, 1 7/8" nut, and one is a Guild Mark II from 1963--a 2" 12-fret that is, I suppose, a classical guitar, but probably more on the folk side of things as far as you guys would think.

So, I have wondered what would happen if I played a nice classical. I have to say that when I first got my Allison dreadnought--a really nice one-luthier piece--it revolutionized my enjoyment of guitar. Perhaps a better classical would do the same? On the other hand, if I am not going to actually learn classical pieces or take lessons, is that kind of a waste? For example, there was a Ramirez 1A for sale locally recently, so I read about them, and many people commented that rather than being easier to play (such as my Allison, compared even to a Martin), that it would likely be far harder, and if I did not have the technique to use it properly, I might be wasting my time and money.

Now, for example, on local CL is a handmade Lucio Nunez. I am not sure yet of the specs.

So, (and I know this has been asked lots of times...sorry), is there such thing as just getting a much-better made nylon classical that fits with what I play that is actually just as easy to play but sounds better than what I am used to?
I'm not necessarily talking about radius (I don't mind flat), or nut width, but maybe very high action or the overall combination just being difficult to handle.

As you know, there really are not nice classicals just sitting around to try--hardly any of the many guitar stores I go in have what you would consider a higher-end classical.

One more rambling question: My Guild is actually pretty easy to sing over--would a more "classical" sound be harder to sing over, or just better overall?

[riffmeister]

Originally Posted by Earwitness

So, (and I know this has been asked lots of times...sorry), is there such thing as just getting a much-better made nylon classical that fits with what I play that is actually just as easy to play but sounds better than what I am used to?

Very likely, yes.

I would check out these places in Austin:

http://www.fiddlersgreenmusicshop.co....08MeRDaU.dpbs

http://www.acoustichaven.com

[jmiked0]

There's a guy named Claudio that comes to Austin once a month or so with a dozen or so classicals of various kinds you can try out. Drop him an email at [email protected] to find out when he shows up next. I bought my last instrument from him, a Francisco Navarro that plays beautifully. His facebook page is under Texas Guitar Gallery.

[Earwitness]

Thank you both for your responses.

[k_russell]

How much money is in your budget for your upgrade?

[Earwitness]

Originally Posted by k_russell

How much money is in your budget for your upgrade?

Well, this is kind of hard to pinpoint, since I am one of those people who is much better at my career than I am at guitar. In other words, I have a little more stupid guitar money than some people, but I'm not prone to wasting money.

I do play guitar every day of my life, and my $4000 steel string dreadnought is one of the best investment/expenditures I ever made. On the other hand, my
unknown luthier handmade parlor is equally fantastic, and I paid half that. Also, money well spent.


Part of the advice I am seeking (and I realize it is just vague opinion) is whether having a really nice classical would be like fooling around on my Guild, but just so much better in sound, or whether it would be more like a casual bicycle rider buying an expensive special-purpose velodrome track bike--just a silly thing to do if I am not committing to classical lessons, etc. I hope that makes sense.

So, as a general range, I would say $1500 to $3000; depending on how much I would actually play it and like it. My Guild Mark II is a certain quality level, and there isn't much point in bringing another guitar into the house if it is only marginally better than that. So, for example, a local CL ad has a Ramirez 1A for $3300, and another ad has a Nunez for $1950--those are examples of what is for sale used around here.

I really appreciate the feed back.

[Gitfiddlemann]

.... Perhaps a better classical would do the same? On the other hand, if I am not going to actually learn classical pieces or take lessons, is that kind of a waste?.....Part of the advice I am seeking (and I realize it is just vague opinion) is whether having a really nice classical would be like fooling around on my Guild, but just so much better in sound, or whether it would be more like a casual bicycle rider buying an expensive special-purpose velodrome track bike--just a silly thing to do if I am not committing to classical lessons, etc. I hope that makes sense.

It does indeed make good sense to ponder such a question imo.
Personally I think that, liking guitar the way you do, having any nice guitar around would be a plus. I don't believe you need to be John Williams to enjoy a good classical guitar or use one to create your own distinct sound (think Willie Nelson and Trigger). That said, if you have no interest in playing classical or developing any classical technique, a quality classical may not be the best option to invest in. Given your musical inclinations you might be better off with a quality "hybrid", like a good crossover guitar. That kind of guitar, which is more accommodating to steel stringer sensibilities, may be a lot more useful for you in the long run than a true classical and provide you with the tonal nylon fix you seek. There are lots of quality choices around. Something like a Kirk Sand would seem ideal for you, or a Kenny Hill crossover, although your indicated budget range may not be sufficient. Cervantes makes excellent crossover nylon stringers for that range. Any of these would make for a very nice sounding nylon string guitar, and could meet your needs more effectively.
Worth some consideration!

[zhunter]

I do think you can get a guitar that will be louder and richer than your current choices. Whether it will play better depends on how the guitars you have play. There is certainly a chance that the action on a classical will be higher than the action on the guitars you have now.

I am getting to be a proponent of at least shopping lower cost steel string instruments as I hear the sonic gap closing in many cases. For nylon, the progress on the low end seems to be lagging behind to my ear. Maybe because, at least in the US market, demand for nylon remains low and the low end market hasn't been taken as seriously. The bar is raising on student models though. And Cordoba and the like are putting out decent sounding instruments at reasonable prices. Some are more decent than others. I have made a lot of gigs on a $500 nylon string and it does get the job done. If I was in the solo guitar concert world I'd probably go a little further.

With your budget I believe you can shop in the $1K to $2K range and hear the improvement in sound. In the $3K up range, the differences start to be about preference and features. Now days about $1K can get a decent student guitar. A trip to Houston might be worth it if the shops in Austin don't work out. When I used to business travel I'd drop in on Memorial Music, the US distributer for Francisco Navarro. They may have a selection but I'd call first.

hunter

[Earwitness]

Well, I did meet the seller of the Lucio Nunez I mentioned. Very pretty guitar, a little dinged/smudged up--she's the original owner from 2007, and played it out. It has a K&K in it and a sound port; apparently somewhat custom. Ladder bracing, as one can see through the soundport.

I A/B'd it w/ my Guild, and it was far louder and sweeter, but we were in kind of a noisy place, so wasn't able to hear perfectly.

The connection between the top and the fretboard had this--is this problematic?:



and I found this curious--why the extra holes in the bridge? And is the saddle too low?




Anyway, a beautiful guitar.

[GGSanders]

I agree wholeheartedly with Andre. If what you are looking for is the rich nylon sound, coming from a steel stringed background, a very good quality hybrid, or crossover, might better suit your needs. But, I am not saying that a true classical is only suited for classical music. Far from it. While obviously classically trained, Muriel Anderson, for example, demonstrates the versatility of a true classical guitar with a variety of styles. Check out her rendition of "Nola" on YouTube, for example.

Like steel stringed guitars, the cost of quality classicals, and more recently hybrids, can really depend on the thickness of your wallet. The only problem is that the availability of a variety to sample is hard to come by. Unless you have your heart set on a concert quality instrument, a very nice playing, fine sounding instrument can be had in the $1500-$3000 range, and will likely far surpass the sound of your Ovation or Guild.

I am not familiar with those crafted by Lucio Nunez, but the appearance of the top/fingerboard in that photo would bother me and I would have it checked by a competent luthier first to rule out an impending separation. The extra holes in the bridge are no issue. Some classicals come like that and offer an alternate method of tying the strings at the bridge, that's all. That owner just opted to use the traditional tying method.

Good luck in your search. A well made, finely crafted nylon string guitar is a joy to play and listen to. And if you've been playing your Ovation and Guild with no issues, the higher action of a nylon stringed instrument would be a non issue.

[Bellcose]

It is all a matter of personal choice and available funds isn't it no matter what others may say.

I have, and had over the years, a few guitars (electric, steel string) and now have moved to include nylon string. I looked at many and finally settled on an Alhambra 4P, Spanish made with solid red cedar top (German spruce also available), laminated rosewood back/side, mahogany neck and ebony fretboard. Yes, more expensive guitars of the make available but for me it was the best bang for the buck. A number of music tutors over here consider it a good guitar for intermediate/advanced students

Quite loud, enjoyable to play. I understand they are available via dealers in the USA. Just something you may wish to check out. There are a number of online reviews of the make.

[Pilsenaaa]

I think this guitar sounds fantastic and you do not have to spend whole lot of money. I was looking at many classical guitars for around 500 $ and this one sounded to my ears really fine and you'll pay probably around 200 $ , solid spruce top , well made instrument.

[mahoriver]

Originally Posted by Earwitness

I am mainly a steel-string fingerstyle player, somewhere out in the middle of the "intermediate" ocean, with no classical training whatsoever, although I do hold my right hand somewhat like a classical player does (maybe). Almost everything I do is my own compositions or arrangements, played only for myself and my own enjoyment. I also write folkish songs and sing--well, sometimes for other people, too, I guess.

One more rambling question: My Guild is actually pretty easy to sing over--would a more "classical" sound be harder to sing over, or just better overall?

You sure can sing over the top of a classical.I am no expert on CG,come from singsong folk/blues stuff on a steel string..Have only had my classical for a couple of weeks.But have found the sound occupies a different space from the steel string.Finding it likes a softer right hand.But singing over the top is easier in some ways.
It might send your playing/arrangements in a whole different area..

A bit of blues singing from guy called Samuel James on a Classical
(and of course theres Willie)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUVNj7J_3iI

You must have a good idea what you want from the Guild too.

[Watt]

The best student-level instrument that I have played was a Giambattista G6B. Tonally, it was competitive with some far more expensive concert guitars, but the set-up was easier. I don't know whether the set-up was representative. (BTW, I've played some of the old Guilds. Nice guitars. The Giambattista was miles ahead.) Unfortunately, you're unlikely to find one at a local guitar store. There's a cutaway version of the G6 currently in the classified section. But they are available new (non-cutaway) for around $2500 from The Classical Guitar Store in Philadelphia. The Classical Guitar Store is one of the best sources for quality student and concert level guitars and they provide a three day approval period on shipped guitars.

[Mr. Scott]

Looking at the photographs of the Nunez guitar, I would be wary of it as there does seem to be a problem with the fingerboard to top joint, although it would be better to see it in person to assess the seriousness of the anomaly. This is coupled with the fact that the saddle is lower on the treble side which is to be expected to a certain degree but I think in this case is excessive. Also, the 12 hole string fixing at the bridge is fairly common, but in this case is incorrectly done. If this is the first owner, she has been doing it wrong from the start I would guess (despite what she said, she may not be the first owner), as the luthier who built the guitar would have strung it correctly which the owner would have copied on re-stringing, one would expect.
But as others have said, I think you would enjoy a good quality nylon-strung instrument. I think we Europeans may have more choice than you guys over the pond, but the Ramirez you mentioned should be an OK instrument, and if you are prepared to go to the $3000 range, youu should be able to get a quality student guitar.