using a mic for solo classical guitar

[815C]

I'm going play in some places where I will need to use a mic for my classical.

Any recommendations about what mic to use?

[JohnDWilliams]

DPA 4099 works very well. AKG C411 works surprisingly well for the cost and ease of use. Also pretty feedback resistant.

Both are XLR and need phantom power. Don't know your budget.

[Red_Label]

I've used Shure SM57s, Shure SM81s and other mics. But I hate having to sit right in front of the mic, not to mention being worried about bumping my guitar and scratching it on the mic. I recently picked up an Audio Technica AT831b lavalier/instrument mic and absolutely love it. Their Pro 70 lavalier seems to get good reviews as well. I will never mic my classical/flamenco guitars with a regular handheld-type mic again.

[ZippyChip]

My experience with mics or direct connect to a PA often comes off annoyingly treble and squeaky. One night at an open mic, I had a very good sound, not sqeaky and not unpeasantly treble and I thought to myself that I had finally figured out how to set my DI and onboard tone controls (acoustic electric classical). However, later I discovered that I had installed and forgotten I had polished strings on my guitar. Polished classical strings are not very good for acoustic work but work very well when amplified.
If you have time, experimenting with it.

[Ned Milburn]

FWIW, I've amassed parts to try a prototype run for a mic-based simple pickup design that intends to reproduce the natural woody sound of the guitar and at the same time being fairly resistant to feedback. Amplifying acoustic guitars, as we know, is fraught with feedback difficulties - especially when micing rather than UST pickups or soundboard pickups. The better the guitar is acoustically, often the worse it is amplified (because it is so resonant it will feedback easily). I've got a lot of projects on the go presently, so I probably won't get a chance to make the pickups until fall.

[riffmeister]

I've used/tried several mics for live use, and the one I like the best is a vocal microphone, a Shure beta SM87a, pointed off-axis at the lower bout, treble side, about 18 inches away from the soundboard.

[creamburmese]

I had to play some background music in a fairly large auditorium recently and they just parked the vocal mic about 18" from the 12th fret and I have to say it sounded very nice...

[Jabberwocky]

Check out Bartlett Audio http://www.bartlettaudio.com .

[Sidheguitarist]

Originally Posted by 815C

I'm going play in some places where I will need to use a mic for my classical.

Any recommendations about what mic to use?

Hi 815,

I'm going to take the lazy way out and post part of the ancient text I contributed from an old thread on classical amplification, since it has some info on two of my favorite mics in the post, and why [Spoiler Alert: the Rode NT-4, for reasons noted below, or else the line audio CM3 small diaphragm condenser]. I hope this helps... plus, the forum that had this thread is now TU, so this is as good a place as any to stick this info. Some of the stuff is a bit dated, but I do discuss mics part way down:
--
This is probably a lot more info than you all want, but, I look at any sound reinforcement situation as essentially problem solving/damage control: the problem of the audience not being able to hear the subtleties of what you're doing, the damage to your tone from introducing electronics into the signal, the damage to the enjoyment of playing that comes from having one ear on the gear and one less to perform with.

Given that, I firmly believe that there is no one best pickup/mic/tool, only the best combination of tools for mitigating a specific problem situation. The demands of playing "Capricho Arabe" for 3,000+ people in an outdoor park filled with food vendors is obviously a lot different than the demands of amplifying a GFA tour winner in a medium sized church for the benefit of elderly listening ears–even if the goals of the problem solving efforts are identical.

The list of stuff in my kit that I always seem to find use for over the years (specific examples to follow) includes:
*LR Baggs and AER amps;
*Smaller PA with Mackie SRM350s (now totally eclipsed by the QSC K10s mentioned earlier, FWIW, I agree-we used a venue’s K10 as an extension to our AER last weekend, and it was great), Mackie mixer, TC reverb;
*Standing borrow offer for larger boards and QSC K12 speakers;
*Mics like the Rode NT4, line audio CM3, et al...
*a Schertler DYN-G contact pickup.

In addition, I am also beta testing a new nylon string pickup by LR Baggs–installed in a Kenny Hill guitar that I bought a couple of months ago for the purpose–that should be released at this coming January's NAMM show, if all goes well.

I've used all this stuff, and more, over the last year.

If I can avoid amplification altogether, I'm going to do it, but that's probably no more than 20-25 shorter recital-type/academic events in rooms with good acoustics a year out of well over a hundred varied performances; most of the time I'm reaching for either the rode mic, or a combination of the line audio mic and the Schertler.

The Rode is actually a studio mic: it consists of two capsules mounted to one body in a permanent X-Y stereo configuration. I don't often care about the stereo capability, but the two capsules have a couple of advantages: one, they capture more of the surface area of the guitar, so the amplified sound has more of the guitar's detail and character in it; and two, surprisingly, I can get more gain before feedback out of this mic. I assume that this is because each capsule is providing a portion the complete signal (as opposed to all of it going through a single mic) so the overall volume out front is louder before either mic head starts feeding back. Pretty cool, whatever the reason.

I use that mic a fair amount for outdoor gigs and multi-act festival slots, provided that I'm in control of the PA or have played the venue before-so long as there are no subwoofers on either side of the stage, and no weird canopies reflecting sound, it works great. For one example, my duo regularly plays an organic market's outdoor concert series for 100-200 people in the market's parking lot with only that Rode mic on my guitar. I also use the Rode into the AER Domino3 to mic up guest recital artists e.g. Florian Larousse on his GFA tour, or regional guitar profs when they occasionally come through Gonzaga in recital; just a little bit of that big mic capture (maybe 60/40 in favor of the natural guitar) does wonders for the back rows. The artists, who sit behind the AER can’t ever tell that the mic is on, FWIW.



If I can't just use a mic, the next step is the Schertler in combination with the line audio CM3–I bought this mic from our fellow forumite Giacomo Fiore, who turned me on to them when he was a masters student at the SFCM. It's pretty much like all the other common small diaphragm mics available for classical guitar, except that it has a warmer high end, without
sacrificing detail to my ears-a bit like a combination of anyone's Neumann km184 knock-off and a ribbon mic. No idea why the treble is so smooth, but it sounds great on nylon string. The standard idea here is to use the pickup to boost the volume before feedback and fill out the detail and high end transients
with the mic.



This particular combo into the newer AER is our default wine bar rig, and I have never failed to get rave reviews about the sound from any classical guitarist who hears it, seriously. It's pretty stunning; I'd put the combination (which includes my Sahlin and my string and touch preferences) up against anything I've heard; It's that good.

The next step up the sound pressure ladder is just jettisoning the mic altogether and running only the contact pickup. At this point something like the Baggs amp (As noted, unfortunately now discontinued due to the vicissitudes of dealing with Chinese manufacturing) shines because the EQ is so powerful. The pickup definitely sounds better by itself through the more flexible Baggs' front end circuitry, and it has two parametric bands and notch filters to help with feedback. This is my "open for pop bands/play multi genre festivals" rig: I just line out of the amp right into the snake and out to FOH.The EQ is part of the deal with pickups, just like the guitar, speakers and player. It all makes a big difference, IMO and IME, and you can’t change one factor without effecting all the others.

One more thing about the Schertler, BTW: if it seems like I have a major love affair going with that thing, it's because I do; but only because I don't want to drill into the Sahlin.

The Schertler behaves about like most soundboard transducers, but it sticks on the outside, instead of mounting on the inside. That's why I have it. Truthfully, I could probably get pretty much the same results with a good permanent SBT like the Baggs IBeam, the PUTW film pickups, (both of which I've played on in the past), Andrew's McIntyre, a K&K pure, or any similar pickup. When makers of SBT's use piezo film/contact elements to try and maximize transparency and gain while minimizing feedback, the design constraints of the exercise guarantee that the results will be fairly similar. If one doesn't mind an end pin jack and some preamping/wiring inside their instrument, there are plenty of options–all of which are somewhat more convenient onstage than the Schertler. Plus, by using a pickup that terminates in a 1/4" connection instead of the Schertler's XLR cable, there's all sorts of great preamp/DI combos to use (dedicated Baggs guy that I am, I like their "venue" DI-essentially the same features as their lamented amp's front end, again, something that Keleren and I had input-no pun intended-into the design of).

Here's the downside of all these great soundboard transducers, however: The same "almost mic-like" sound that they offer also yields "almost mic like feedback issues", just a bit less of both. There's no way around that, and when you find yourself in a situation where the environment is too loud for even that sort of pickup, then you pretty much have to go to an undersaddle transducer for nylon strings. IMHO, these all sound largely like rubber bands–at least to the average "unplugged classical" ear, and I don't particularly see the point for a concert guitar. I would personally rather have a dedicated guitar designed from the ground up for amplification at that stage (say in a pop or loud Latin band), such as a Godin multiac or a Turner Renaissance; short of body use issues, or a guitar support precluding the thin bodies.

This brings me to the new Baggs pickup that I mentioned above; that pickup will likely be welcomed by the players who have the need. Based on their 'lyric' pressure zone mic for steel string-that's been readily embraced by many Nashville and bluegrass players-this is the best sounding feedback resistant pickup I've tried. It really does sound mic-like in its detail and attack; unsurprising, since it is a mic. Definitely in the same ballpark as a well-EQ'd schertler or SBT, with less artifact from the wood/string juncture and, astonishingly, much more feedback resistant. Right now, it's the only intermediate pickup for nylon string that I am aware of that slots in between the soundboard transducers and the older, string attack-oriented undersaddle options that we are all familiar with, in terms of being really loud.

So that’s a summary of my thoughts on amplifying. I’ve learned about this stuff because I’d rather go through the pain in the *** of dealing with all this gear at a high level of function than pass up the gig. That’s why (in addition to my *excelllent* vocalist wife, I hasten to add) I’m a guy that nobody’s ever heard of who gets to play “Capricho” and “Leyenda” and obscure Erik Marchelie miniatures for hundreds or even thousands of people in a given summer. Other mileage may vary on that philosophy, and that’s fine.

Hope that helps,
-MM