Oh NO! Not another "which sdc?" thread! ;-)

[KenW]

Actually.....I've narrowed it down to a few, I will get a pair of one of the following:

1) Beyerdynamic MC930, which I rarely if ever see used

2) Neumann KM184, which are readily available used for the same or a bit more or less than the other choices

3) Josephson c42, which rarely show up used and when they do, cost almost as much as the new ones

4) Joly modded Oktava MK 012, I have never seen a used set of these on either eBay or craigslist

5) a vintage pair of Neumann KM84's, this is the one I want the most, but I am very hesitant because I would have to max out my credit card. The previous choices would dent it, but not max it.

I've also decided to mount them on a stereo bar and I will do a test run to see if XY or ORTF yields the most pleasing results. I have done some work in the past that involved XY and AB, and when listening back to those, I preferred the XY.

I have a question concerning the Oktava's: Is the Joly mod worth it? I could skip the mod and get a straight up pair with extra capsules. I like the warmth of their stock sound that was shown in another post on this forum, and my guitar is a bit bright to begin with, I think the warmth can help tame the brightness a bit.

I did this straight into my iPod as a crude form of getting used to the red light being on while playing:

http://youtu.be/9zrgwj-ThMc

I have an album's worth of material like this that I'd like to record in a nice old parish and put up on iTunes. That's the context of what I am trying to do. The Oktava's would give the option of trying an omni cap to get more room sound. No matter which I get, I am pretty bound and determined to put a fair amount of space between myself and the mics to pick up as much ambience as possible, so low self noise is a must for both the pre and the mic. I will be literally listening to laptops tomorrow for fan noise, and I will decide then if I go straight to pc or a dedicated field recorder. My Lenovo tower has a fan that is nearly inaudible, so I will look at their laptops as well.

Thanks in advance for any input or shared experiences.

[Jeff Scott]

Another mic you may want to consider is the Audio Technica AT4051b, or AT4021, these are great mics that seem to be under the radar to most people.

[rick-slo]

All decent sounding mikes. Often the sound differences in similar types of mikes are small, but there are standouts for good or bad depending on what you like. In ultimate preferences it may come down to the mike's self noise, proximity effect, and other sensitivities to placement such as off axis response.

Of the ones I have tried personally and returned are the Beyerdynamic MC930's (crackling noise, maybe a bad mike) and the Neumann KM184's (liked some other mikes better).

The Neumann KM84's stand out with a slightly thicker, warmer sound at a trade off of some transient detail. Mercenary Audio's KM-69 microphone is designed to sound similar to the KM84. I tried a pair and liked the sound in the ways I mentioned about the KM84's. There was more self noise than I was used to so I did not keep those.

Whatever you hear in some recording you can bet the microphones will sound quite different in your environment. Good luck in the quest.

[Rick Shepherd]

Another microphone to consider is the Gefell M300. I use a pair of these, slightly fuller in the bottom end and darker that the KM184. They have more presence and are not as hyped in the highs.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by KenW

Actually.....I've narrowed it down to a few

Ken, how did you narrow down to this list? Nothing wrong with the list, but it's pretty hard to pick a guitar by reading online, and mics are the same. Get your hands on something, even a simple cheap mic, and see what you can do with it. From there, you might be able to identify some shortcoming (Rick's hearing too much noise in a mic is an example), and seek out something else to try that seems like it would address this problem. Some places will let you try before you buy, or have good return policies, so that's a way to try some different mics and figure out what works for you, hands-on. It sounds like you have some specific ideas of what you want (like recording from a distance), but the funny thing about recording is that there are often surprises. You might find you get the sound in your head in a totally different way than you expect.

(Your demo sounds nice for a phone recording, but a pair of even inexpensive mics is likely to be a big step up).

[alohachris]

Aloha Ken,

Doug asked the hard question about how you chose your SDC wish list. He's right on.

I have owned or auditioned all of the mic's on your SDC wish list. I hold educated opinions about each one. But I'm not going to share them.....because they don't matter - especially if you haven't put an ear on any of 'em yet.

What are your current opinions about those mic's? Heard any of them?

Go put an ear on some mic's Ken, (& many others in all price ranges for the education) & then make a mic wish list or choice. TRUST YOUR EARS ONLY!

alohachris

[KenW]

To Doug and aloha:

I -agree- with what you are saying about letting my ears be the final judge with -my- guitar in -my- environment. I have 2 Guitar Centers close to me. The problem is that they do not actually stock the mics that they list. My credit card limits are not high enough to have several mics shipped. SInce Guitar Center gets all of their stuff from Musicians Friend, and there is an MF facility 20 miles east of here, maybe I could feasibly have them ship several choices to GC. Neither GC of MF have some of the choices I've narrowed down to.

I narrowed down the results based on how often they show up on the used market: if people are keeping them, they must be worth hanging on to. If on occasion people -do- let them go, and they bring pretty doggone close to what they sold for new, that is an indicator that they have a reputation for doing their job well.

I used to own a pair of Sennheiser e914's, I sold them due to lean times, but I already have a feel for how that type of mic works. I loved them up close, but did not care for them at a distance. Whatever I get this time, unless they are obviously bad or faulty, I will tweak positions and gains as long as I have to to suit the room, the mics, and the guitar.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by KenW

I narrowed down the results based on how often they show up on the used market:

That's a reasonable measure of how popular mics are and how they work for others. Recording acoustic guitar, especially solo instrumental, is a pretty esoteric endeavor in the world at large tho, so you may not be getting the right picture as it applies to you. People hang onto things for different reasons. I have a pair of Schoeps CMC6/MK41s that I hope to never sell. They're a world class mic that are too useful to sell. They should last me my lifetime, and someone else's after I'm gone. But I also have a pair of AT2020s that I paid $59 each for. They're fine, and actually do a great job on guitar. While not classic, lifetime mics, I'll probably also never sell those because I'd get so little money from them, it's not worth the effort, and they're a nice backup to have around.

On the other hand, not to go down the rathole of how much mics do or don't matter, but to me, the difference in the various mics you're considering is not "night and day". The differences, relative to other things, is quite small, and any of them should get the job done. So go with something you can afford and get started!

but I already have a feel for how that type of mic works. I loved them up close, but did not care for them at a distance.

Micing guitar from a distance is hard, so much depends on the acoustics. What I hear you saying is you want to record the sound of the room, more than the guitar. And mics hear the room differently than your ears, so just because a room sounds nice to you, it may not work for recording. Classical players use the room (check out this beautiful recording: http://vimeo.com/21498274 - warning, the mics used here are far above your budget). Steel string recordings these days are almost always relatively close mic'd, at least comparatively. "far away" often means two feet, while close can mean 2 inches. Often, with steel strings, the idea of being far away is to get the "whole guitar" instead of picking up specific areas of the guitar, but to do that, the room is often relatively dead, so you still get a direct sound. Then a "room sound" can be added with external reverb. These days, there are reverbs that can literally place you in any room you want, different from the sort of "echo" effect we sometimes think of. But you can always use the classical approach on steel string, and if the room really enhances the guitar (as heard by the mics, not your ears), you may like the results.

[Rick Shepherd]

Ken, have you decided what the rest of your signal chain is going to consist of?

[KenW]

Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd

Ken, have you decided what the rest of your signal chain is going to consist of?

As straight and pure of a signal path as humanly possible. And I do not care about onboard effects and other bells and whistles. Heck, I don't even care about bundled DAW's, I'm fine with Reaper or Audacity. I have 2 customers that are film composers. If I do decide to record at home and add reverb in post, they both have pro grade plugins that can be added in mastering.

I'm leaning towards Sound Devices USBpre 2 into a Lenovo laptop. I like my Lenovo tower; the fan is quiet and when the PC was new, it did not have any of that crappy proprietary software that other brand name PC's love to bog down their systems with. If fan noise is an issue, than I will switch gears and buy the best used dual pre I can afford and a used Masterlink. I know where one is with an upgraded hard drive. On the first project, I'm going to involve my son, so we could feasibly set up the pre>laptop behind the mics if we went with cardioids, correct?

[KenW]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

On the other hand, not to go down the rathole of how much mics do or don't matter, but to me, the difference in the various mics you're considering is not "night and day". The differences, relative to other things, is quite small, and any of them should get the job done. So go with something you can afford and get started!

As I told Fran on another forum, I have a terrible habit of obsessing over the little stuff which in the long run only delays the important stuff.

Micing guitar from a distance is hard, so much depends on the acoustics. What I hear you saying is you want to record the sound of the room, more than the guitar. And mics hear the room differently than your ears, so just because a room sounds nice to you, it may not work for recording. Classical players use the room (check out this beautiful recording: http://vimeo.com/21498274 - warning, the mics used here are far above your budget).

Anything that Norbert Kraft touches turns into audio gold when it comes to classical guitar. I am also quite fond of this recording:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5xnCxAG07s

....and a pair of identical mics (the very ones Parkening used in the 80's) are 2 miles from my doorstep.

Steel string recordings these days are almost always relatively close mic'd, at least comparatively. "far away" often means two feet, while close can mean 2 inches. Often, with steel strings, the idea of being far away is to get the "whole guitar" instead of picking up specific areas of the guitar, but to do that, the room is often relatively dead, so you still get a direct sound. Then a "room sound" can be added with external reverb. These days, there are reverbs that can literally place you in any room you want, different from the sort of "echo" effect we sometimes think of. But you can always use the classical approach on steel string, and if the room really enhances the guitar (as heard by the mics, not your ears), you may like the results.

The thing is, and this is why I have been leaning away from omnis, in both examples cardioids were used. I realize that the classical purists say that they are "recording the room", but in reality, it's more a case of the guitar interracting with the room. One thing that I have learned as a luthier is that it is not soley the top, nor solely the size of the box, nor solely the back, but rather how the three are combined to make a coupled resonance. And the guitar is yet again coupled with another resonance, the room. I recently abandoned the footstool and installed strap buttons, and that freedom has allowed me to walk from room to room in my house and observe changes in realtime how my guitar "couples" with the room that it is in. -I- love to play in the entry way. -I- love to play in my kitchen. My iPod has made it very clear that -it- prefers my living room, and I have little reason to doubt that would change when I get a rig that is decidedly more pro than an $30 iRig mic into my iPod. So, with that said, your advice is noted and accepted as solid and even verified to a certain degree, and I would even add to it that if I like the way the guitar is responding to the room, but for whatever reason close miking is the only option, so be it.

[kevbroce]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I also have a pair of AT2020s that I paid $59 each for. They're fine, and actually do a great job on guitar. While not classic, lifetime mics, I'll probably also never sell those because I'd get so little money from them, it's not worth the effort, and they're a nice backup to have around.

I completely agree, bough a pair of these for $100 new for live bands, figuring they're so cheap I won't have to worry about them on stage. I think I've posted this before but they consistently surprise me with how good they sound. They not something I'd put up on an important recording, but live shows, rehearsal, travel sdc's, they're great.

Edit - I lied, I've got the 2021's, not the 2020's. 2021s are the small diaphragm condensers, 2020's are the large diaphragm condensers.

[Fran Guidry]

It's hard not to think that a "magic" mic will add magic to a recording, but after doing acoustic guitar recording at home for quite a while I've come to the conclusion that the important question is, "Does this mic interfere with the emotional impact of the music?"

A noisy mic does interfere, a mic that distorts or rings does interfere. One with inadequate sensitivity can make things harder. A severely skewed frequency response can make for unpleasant listening. But it's not hard or expensive to avoid those kinds of issues.

In this post http://69.41.173.82/forums/showpost....0&postcount=32 Doug Young offers up a same source level matched clip featuring a pair of Brauner VM1 hand built tube based LD mics compared with a pair of Chinese sourced AT2020s.

Here are the clips:
http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/mp3/AB_MicCompare/A.mp3
http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/mp3/AB_MicCompare/B.mp3

Does either mic interfere with the emotional impact of the piece?

Fran

[alohachris]

Aloha Ken,

I see the situation you are in for trying out mic's, brother, & have some empathy.

However, there are additional options available.

First, & most obvious - go to pro level audio stores w/ a great selection of studio mic's. To try out mic's at stores, go very early or very late in the day so the noise level is not distracting & you're not in the way.

You can rent the mic's for a day & try them out on your home rig, do your own shootout. I do this all the time & think it's really worth the shipping costs. There are several suppliers who do this nationally. If I can do it from Hawaii, so can you, Ken, & more cheaply as well.

You could rent an hour or two of studio time at a studio that has some of those mic's (call around).

Find other musicians in your area who would allow you to try one of those mic's out (post in Craigslist?),

You could drive to very big city pro audio stores to try 'em out. I go on audio fact finding trips every other year to LA to upgrade my audio knowledge - it's all about putting an ear on the gear, Ken.

Depending on their return policy, you could "buy" those mic's one at a time from stores, try 'em out at home, & then return the one's you don't like. GC, MF, Sweetwater, etc. It's always better to try out mic's on your own home rig. Always. That's one way to do it. For me that option is a last resort.

Ken, I changed my mind. Here are my opinions on what MY EARS have told me RE the mic's you've listed. These are just one player/recordist's opinions & could be different from what your ears will tell ya about the same mic's, Ken.

First, as Doug mentioned, there are NO HUGE SONIC DIFFERENCES among those SDC's on your list - they are all capable of making great recordings. There are big differences in price & subtle differences, depending on the application. For example, solo fingerstyle vs. strumming tracks - one mic may not suit all styles, capice?

If money is the issue, then start with the Russian-made Oktava MK-012. You can find pairs used all the time at GS for $150. Make sure they are Russian-made, not Chinese knock-offs! I like both the Joly & Dorsey upgrades to that mic (worth it), but the stock one is a great value alone. Nice sound for live or recording. Not as good on the transients & details as others on your list, or for off-axis apps. Not shrill sounding - natural. Clear. But by far, the MK-012 is the best value on your list - even with the Joly upgrade. I have owned the MK-012 & used it mostly for live apps. At its price, you can use it live & not worry if it tips over. Can't do that with the others. Great sound. Great price!

The Neumann KM-184 is a great mic & one of the standard studio SDC's. It's got the name, so it's got the higher price for what it is. It is very clear & detailed, but hyped in the high end (ear fatigue, IMO). Great off-axis accuracy, very quiet. Many love it.

To my ears, the KM-184 is too edgy & needs a lot of EQ roll-off on the upper-mid's & high frequencies. But it can be tamed by EQ, like most great mic's, to make it work. It's clarity allows it to inhabit a track in a mix exceptionally well, IMO, to cut through. A high-quality SDC. I have used & auditioned this mic several times, trying to love it for the price. Not one of my favorites. I prefer the KM-140's.

Josephson C42. Very similar to the KM-184 in that it has a similar edgy high end bump, but less offensively so than the KM-184. But I find it to be much more musical & controllable than the KM-184, clear, accurate, great for fingerstyle with the right preamp combo. There's something about Josephson's that show's how much that small company puts into it. I love their line of mic's. The C42 is a great SDC mic, Ken.

BeyerDynamic MC 930. Behind the KM-84, this is my second favorite mic of your choices. It is very well-balanced, detailed, quiet, musical, clear & natural sounding. Works well on fingerstyle or strumming. IS NOT HYPED at all. Quieter than the KM-84. I would definitely put an ear on a pair of these, Ken.

Neumann KM-84. A true classic SDC. Acoustic musicians & engineers have been complaining ever since Neumann discontinued this well-known mic. Despite Neumann's claims to the contrary, the KM-184 has absolutely nothing in common with the legendary, great sounding KM-84. Nothing, except the name.

The KM-84 was the SDC for all kinds of acoustic instruments in the late 70's-80's. Everybody used 'em. Ya couldn't do any better for balanced, accurate, un-hyped sound than with the KM-84. It was so musical & transparent, & just a tad dark sounding.

However, the KM-84 is also considerably noisier than all the other, modern mic's on your list. AND, many of the surviving KM-84's have been pretty beat up over the years because it was also a preferred LIVE SDC back in its heyday.

So if you have a chance to buy a pair of KM-84's, have them checked out or demand a check-out of the seller if can. OR plan on spending more money on a Neumann upgrade. KM-84's also tend to be priced a lot higher than they need to be because of their esteemed reputation. The cheaper ones available now are always are the really beat ones - so beware. I owned a pair & truly miss them. But back in 1980, my favorite SDC for recording acoustic fingerstyle was the AKG EB 352! And I ran it into a Sony F-1 - the first digital two-track recorder.

BTW, my "go-to" SDC's for solo fingerstyle is a pair of Schoeps CMC6's with the MK-41 hypercardioid capsules (also use MK-2 omni's & the MK-8 figure 8 caps as well). My ears tell me that that's the pair everytime I play solo fingerstyle. Expensive, but worth every penny to me. It has some magic.

I also have four other pairs of great studio SDC's plus a few studio LDC's for strumming & vocals. I like the Mojave MA-200 LDC for strumming by far.

Just my opinions based on first-hand experience & what my ears told me about the mic's on your list, Ken.

Hope it provides a starting point for your own audio exploration of these great mic's. You simply can't make a wrong choice for recording SDC's with any of them, Ken.

A Hui Hou!

alohachris

[KenW]

Thank you Chris, and the one thing that I CAN glean from your very thoughtful reply is that the other choices are just too good to mess with the additional cost and headache of an old pair of 84's. Your post had great timing; I was very close to pulling the trigger on a pair from an eBay vendor in Germany claiming to have 6 from EMI Germany. The additional cost would have greatly shrunk my choices for pre and final recording medium.