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Old 03-21-2017, 03:02 PM
N K Forster N K Forster is offline
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Default NK Forster Guitars - "soundboard topography" experiment

Most makers have a few levers to pull when it comes to creating an instruments "voice." They adapt the design to meet the customers' sonic desires by changing materials. Or with the body shape. Or by experimenting with bracing patterns. Or brace shaving. Or all these. It's how we spend much of our working lives - experimenting with these ingredients.

The tool I use to shape a guitar's voice most isn't any of these. The "tool" I use most to colour a guitars "voice" is the three-dimensional shape the soundboard takes. The "topography" if you will. This all stems back to my years working for Stefan Sobell.

When I worked for Stefan, every guitar we made used the same top former. Sure we played around with thicknessing and bracing, but we didn’t experiment at all with the “topography.” The bracing and thicknessing of Sobell guitars didn't differ greatly to what was being done by other makers. What did differ, was the soundboard "topography." That said, over the years the former itself changed. – Years of clamping and over clamping caused the former to deform in certain areas. This added to the shape’s complexity. When I opened my own shop, the first thing I did was make my own top former, based on the Sobell guitar design. – The only thing I changed was the upper area above the sound hole to “set” the neck angle and to ease fretboard fitting.





I used that “Sobell” former for every guitar from 2005 up until 2009. But around that time I started making "cylinder top" instruments based on the old Howe Orme design. If you've never seen or played a Howe Orme, seek one out - they are great guitars. Especially the larger models. Magnificent sounding. And very unusual.





I’ve made a lot of cylinder top instruments since then. It’s an interesting design, different from the Sobell guitar design. But does share some similar aims. And they sound similar. But they're also different and I struggle to put the differences into words. What I did find though was by experimenting with different variations on the Howe Orme arch and thicknessing, I could colour the sound that came out with more control and with just as much variation as I could by altering bracing and by changing materials. Here is one of mine:





Last year I thought it might be interesting to create a new experiment. What might happen if I applied all I'd learned by building cylinder top guitars to the Sobell soundboard design?

So last year I dusted off the Sobell style top former again. The results were great. It was the same old sound but more of it.






"But how does the "SS" sound compare to the "HO" cylinder top guitars?"


That's the question I get asked the most. I have my preferences for sure, but they may not be the same as yours. So I think it's time for another experiment.

I’m making a pair of my Model S guitars. The Model S is roughly OM size. One will have an HO (cylinder top) the other will be my SS (standard soundboard) which is based on the old Sobell design.

Both soundboards will be European spruce. And they'll be consecutive "cuts" from the same log. So as close to identical twins as will be possible.

Both necks will be vintage reclaimed 1908 Cuban mahogany, both fretboards will be my stash of old Sri Lankan ebony. Both will be the same scale. 24.75" is what I use the most these days.

But what about the back and sides? There is plenty to choose from. But with new CITES rules, I'm going to avoid rosewood and bubinga. Which is a shame as I've loads of both! These days I laminate the ribs. So their contribution to the guitar could be described as more decorative than sonic. But the important thing is to make them both the same.

That's the key to this experiment - I'm going to try and duplicate everything except the soundboard structures.

So what are the choices for back and sides? Well, I've plenty of wenge. And some amazing figured sapele. And some rather lovely birds eye maple. What do you all think?

I'll be dipping in and out of this project over the next few months. I can't make it a priority as I'm still playing catch up with last years work! But when I get some spare time I'll post some pictures here.

It would be nice at the end to send these guitars out - so a few of you could do the comparisons for me? Any volunteers?

Nigel

Last edited by N K Forster; 03-22-2017 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 03-21-2017, 06:38 PM
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Guitars44me Guitars44me is offline
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Smile Very interesting project

Very interesting project!

I am sure many of us will be glued to our screens… Have fun with this, we will!

Cheers

Paul
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Old 03-21-2017, 07:29 PM
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If you want to compare the sound of the tops I would go for the sapele rather than the wenge to keep the focus on the tops and not the back contribution.
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Old 03-21-2017, 08:10 PM
jessupe jessupe is offline
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take a look at some of my guitars, they are double arched, like bowed instruments, but have a "flat top" bridge. It's a similar concept.....you are I assume bending the soundboard over dramatic radius braces, I assume? where I am carving the arches out of 1" thick material. At any rate it is a great way to work with the sound....cool stuff
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Old 03-21-2017, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N K Forster View Post
It would be nice at the end to send these guitars out - so a few of you could do the comparisons for me? Any volunteers?

Nigel
Yes. But IIRC you're in Yurop and I'm in the US
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Old 03-22-2017, 12:49 AM
N K Forster N K Forster is offline
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Here are a few examples of my cylinder tops

This one is ladder braced and has a Howe Orme style adjustable neck - it's a "modified" Howe Orme replica:



This is an X braced Model C-HO. Quite a different sound.



I don't have any videos of Tom playing a C-SS. But I do have this one of Ian Stephenson playing what I'd now refer to as a C-SS made in 2006:



Here he is playing a C-HO:



This is why I'm doing the experiment - I've never had a matching pair to examine side by side. Should be interesting.

Nigel
http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/inst...uitar-model-c/
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Old 03-22-2017, 06:48 AM
bdm0509 bdm0509 is offline
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I'd of course be interested to explore the results, even more so as I have a Model 1 here to add another comparative element--although of course it's not the same woods (German/Brazilian). I'd be happy to record some samples as well.

Feel free to get in touch!

Thanks
Brett
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Old 03-22-2017, 07:16 AM
jonnymosco jonnymosco is offline
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I'd be keen Nigel.

Jonny
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Old 03-22-2017, 07:46 AM
Wengr Wengr is offline
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I'm also a Sobell model one owner, and I like what I am hearing in those clips. A very interesting thread.
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Old 03-22-2017, 12:00 PM
steveh steveh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnymosco View Post
I'd be keen Nigel.

Jonny
Jonny + me would be happy to "do it together". As you know, I have a Forster SessionKing and Jonny a Sobell "Steinbeck", so we could really get back to you with some evidence-based comparisons...and our own personal biases!

I know you do a lot of experimenting Nigel but the cylinder top vs SS is the one I'd like to hear the results of most.

I'd be happy with wenge or sapele: Your hands may thank you more for using sapele tho', and you'll spend hundreds less on pore fillers?

Cheers,
Steve
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Old 03-22-2017, 02:53 PM
Alan Carruth Alan Carruth is offline
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I've made several 'almost matched' pairs over the years, and learned a few things. However, I've decided that to really be useful I ought to first make an actual matched pair that sounds the same. I tried once, about twenty years ago, but they didn't sound alike. I've just finished another pair that match better, and am in the process of figuring out whether they actually do match 'close enough', or, if not, why not. There's a lot of work to do yet, so I can't comment further right now. I just want to encourage you to keep working on it. It's a great way to find out how well you really understand the workings of these dratted things, and you're bound to learn a lot.
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Old 03-22-2017, 11:17 PM
N K Forster N K Forster is offline
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Found a nice consecutive pair of European spruce soundboards yesterday. They even have matching knots to avoid!

And here they are joined up:



If you've not seen the process, here is how I glue them up - the traditional way with ropes and wedges:



Nigel
http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/inst...uitar-model-c/
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Old 03-23-2017, 04:04 AM
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I'd be willing to be a "comparison volunteer," Nigel. I'm in beautiful Tuscany....
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Old 03-23-2017, 04:22 AM
ukrobbiej1 ukrobbiej1 is offline
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I bet a maple bodied guitar would be amazing. I've played a lot of maple bodied guitars, some truly high end ones at Tamco, as well as a couple of Brooks, and I have enjoyed enjoyed every single one of them.

What is your current thinking on the bridge design Nigel?

Robbie
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Old 03-23-2017, 05:03 AM
magirus magirus is offline
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Although a complete novice who just started learning to play in January, I find these custom build threads very interesting. Having watched some of your videos I can say it's good to hear a Northern accent in them. Of course I may be biased, living a 15 minute stroll away from Durham Cathedral...
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