What makes a tube amp better?

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by MartyGraw

That maybe true but the overdrive is overdriving tubes....Neil Young does not use an overdrive . It is all natural tube distortion from a '59 Tweed Deluxe. The amp has to have fans cooling it to keep it from bursting into flames as it runs so hot.
I do have 2 SS amps for really clean sound if needed, but nothing like a tube amp all the way baby....

Massive Thread Derail Ahead - Fun Fact maybe you can shed some light on for me - I heard NY gets that signature grind from running one overdriven amp's output into another amp's (also overdriven?) input, which is then output to/through a speaker/speakers. Any idea what he's doing there?

[MartyGraw]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

Massive Thread Derail Ahead - Fun Fact maybe you can shed some light on for me - I heard NY gets that signature grind from running one overdriven amp's output into another amp's (also overdriven?) input, which is then output to/through a speaker/speakers. Any idea what he's doing there?

This is from an article in "Guitar World". Other similar articles are around...

At the core of Young’s amplifier setup is a piece of gear as essential to his sound as Old Black: the 1959 tweed Fender Deluxe he’s used since the late Sixties. A small, 15-watt unit, with just two volume knobs and a shared tone control, this amp, says Cragg, “makes all the sound. Onstage, as loud as everything gets, that’s what you hear. And it’s totally stock except for two 6L6’s in place of the original tubes. That boosts the output from 15 to 19 watts, and it kills.” An added consequence of this rebiasing is that the amp runs extremely hot; Cragg has high-powered fans trained on the back of the Deluxe to “keep it from blowing up.”

Young derives his distortion entirely from the Deluxe’s output-tube saturation. He coaxes various gain stages from the amp using a device called the Whizzer, a custom-made switching system he and his late amp tech, Sal Trentino, developed around the time of the Rust Never Sleeps tour in 1978. A high-tech concept housed in a rudimentary box, the Whizzer boasts four preset buttons, each corresponding to one volume/tone configuration on the Deluxe. Young accesses the presets through footswitches on his pedal board, which, in turn, command the Whizzer to mechanically twist the Deluxe’s tone and volume controls to the programmed positions.

All four of the Whizzer’s presets dial in distorted tones on the Deluxe. “The first one,” says Cragg, “is still clean enough that Neil can get really nice dynamics, depending on the way he picks. The second setting is the one he uses on songs like ‘Hey Hey, My My,’ and the third one is really distorted.” The final setting, which moves the Deluxe’s main volume and tone knobs to 12 and the second volume control to roughly 9.9, produces a sound that, says Cragg, “is basically a woooaaarrr type of thing.”

Cragg pads down the output from the Deluxe and feeds it into a Magnatone 280 with stereo vibrato combo amp, and a Mesa/Boogie Bass 400 head with the highs EQ’d out. The latter amplifier is run through a massive Magnatone speaker cabinet that sports “eight horns, four 10-inch speakers, four 15-inch speakers and two 15-inch passive radiators.” The stage rig is rounded out by a 25-watt tweed Fender Tremolux of Cragg’s that the tech rebiased to run at 40 watts, as well as a “high-powered, four-6L6” tweed Fender Twin. Cragg uses a combination of Sennheiser 409 and Shure SM57 microphones on the amps. Young’s reverb unit, a stock, brown-tolex-covered Fender model, is stationed behind the wall of amplifiers. “We have three plates for that,” says Cragg. “We only use one at a time, but they all sound different.”

Young controls everything from an oversized, red wood pedalboard at the front of the stage. The slanted portion features five buttons: one for each of the four Whizzer presets, as well as a reverb kill. Across the top panel are switches for, variously, a Mu-Tron octave divider; an old, AC-powered MXR analog delay; a Boss Flanger in a “blue, cast-metal box”; and an Echoplex. All are housed inside the board. There is also an effect-loop bypass and mute/tune option, as well as a switch that Cragg refers to as the “ugly button.”

“That’s a very strange thing, and Neil only hits it when he wants to go to the next level,” he says. “It activates a unit that’s just totally freaked out.” Cragg laughs. “It’s adjusted how it definitely should not be adjusted. But Neil seems to like that.”

[Big Band Guitar]

Originally Posted by MartyGraw

Maybe you should call Neil Young to tell him his sound is crap....Along with Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, Ry Cooder, Santana.... should I continue?

I never said tubes sound like crap only they are not better.

Those are your words not mine.

[MartyGraw]

No you didn't say " sounded like crap". I took it as an insinuation as wouldn't waste your money on this old technology. That's fine...it's your opinion on sound and accepted. My point is the vast majority of the best guitarists in the world have a different opinion. Just because we have new technology doesn't mean it's better, it means it's different. With the number of boutique amp builders out there and the continuing issuing and reissuing of tube amps by traditional builders, I just don't see it as old obsolete technology, I view is as a technology that is continually evolving. That is because of demand. Demand for a proven technology that has proved itself as a technology in immense demand....why? because it sounds better...

[rockabilly69]

SS amps are great for some types of music, BB King made Lucille sing through his old Gibson Lab series amps. Many people are getting into Quilter amps as they seem to be the flavour of the month. But for me, I've never heard any solid state amp that sounds like a well maintained vintage Tweed or Blackface Fender. I'll stick with the good old tube circuit amps, which I keep ridiculously well maintained! Most of my favorite amps are built in the 50's and 60's, and they run great and deliver the goods consistently. I also have some modern amps built to the standard of the vintage amps (Victoria, Tophat, etc) that I love. Why???? Because they sound GREAT!!!

Tubes are far from being outdated, and anyone that states they can't be high fidelity, do a google search on "HIGH FIDELITY TUBE AMPLIFIERS" to see what's up in the evolution of stereo tube amp circuits!

[DenverSteve]

Originally Posted by numb fingertips

From reading on here, I got the impression that tube amps are better.....What makes them better?.

There is no better.

Originally Posted by numb fingertips

......or there is a preference for tube amps. .....

By some. Find what you like and make that your better. As you see from the previous posts - there is no consensus, only what you learn to work for you needs.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Big Band Guitar

I never said tubes sound like crap only they are not better.

Those are your words not mine.

Well actually "your words" went a step beyond "only they are not better"

For example what comes across as a bit of a dismissive tone of "Tube amps are better if you believe they are better. After spending a thousand dollars more than the solid state equivalent it has to be better".


While obviously everyone is entitled to their personal opinion...


But I am guessing it was it appeal to self authority, and the phrase "waste my money" that sparked the retort.
Not to mention the fact that the anecdote of one of sound guy being fooled ,,, simply illustrates one man being fooled, and offers proof of nothing else.

But I completely understand because I have yet to find an SS amp I would spend my money on

[JeffreyAK]

Originally Posted by numb fingertips

From reading on here, I got the impression that tube amps are better or there is a preference for tube amps. Am I mistaken? What makes them better? How about a low watt tube amp for home?

Listen to some and form your own impression. I've never heard a good tube amp that sounds as good as any solid-state amp (for electric, that is), but your ears may different.

[Scotso]

solid state vs modelers vs tubes. I have all. My Katana- solid state is great. Used to own AxeFX wh was good. Still own lots of tube amps. I will say this at the risk of sounding snooty. The expensive tube amps I have owned sounded better than my low end tube amps. All sounded good but once you get over a grand they just sound better-more responsive and touch sensitive. Carr and Morgan and Fender and hand wired Vox are my favorites. Having said that I practice a lot on a Katana wh is very inexpensive.

Your mileage may vary. Everyone's ears are different

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by MartyGraw

This is from an article in "Guitar World". Other similar articles are around...

At the core of Young’s amplifier setup is a piece of gear as essential to his sound as Old Black: the 1959 tweed Fender Deluxe he’s used since the late Sixties. A small, 15-watt unit, with just two volume knobs and a shared tone control, this amp, says Cragg, “makes all the sound. Onstage, as loud as everything gets, that’s what you hear. And it’s totally stock except for two 6L6’s in place of the original tubes. That boosts the output from 15 to 19 watts, and it kills.” An added consequence of this rebiasing is that the amp runs extremely hot; Cragg has high-powered fans trained on the back of the Deluxe to “keep it from blowing up.”

Young derives his distortion entirely from the Deluxe’s output-tube saturation. He coaxes various gain stages from the amp using a device called the Whizzer, a custom-made switching system he and his late amp tech, Sal Trentino, developed around the time of the Rust Never Sleeps tour in 1978. A high-tech concept housed in a rudimentary box, the Whizzer boasts four preset buttons, each corresponding to one volume/tone configuration on the Deluxe. Young accesses the presets through footswitches on his pedal board, which, in turn, command the Whizzer to mechanically twist the Deluxe’s tone and volume controls to the programmed positions.

All four of the Whizzer’s presets dial in distorted tones on the Deluxe. “The first one,” says Cragg, “is still clean enough that Neil can get really nice dynamics, depending on the way he picks. The second setting is the one he uses on songs like ‘Hey Hey, My My,’ and the third one is really distorted.” The final setting, which moves the Deluxe’s main volume and tone knobs to 12 and the second volume control to roughly 9.9, produces a sound that, says Cragg, “is basically a woooaaarrr type of thing.”

Cragg pads down the output from the Deluxe and feeds it into a Magnatone 280 with stereo vibrato combo amp, and a Mesa/Boogie Bass 400 head with the highs EQ’d out. The latter amplifier is run through a massive Magnatone speaker cabinet that sports “eight horns, four 10-inch speakers, four 15-inch speakers and two 15-inch passive radiators.” The stage rig is rounded out by a 25-watt tweed Fender Tremolux of Cragg’s that the tech rebiased to run at 40 watts, as well as a “high-powered, four-6L6” tweed Fender Twin. Cragg uses a combination of Sennheiser 409 and Shure SM57 microphones on the amps. Young’s reverb unit, a stock, brown-tolex-covered Fender model, is stationed behind the wall of amplifiers. “We have three plates for that,” says Cragg. “We only use one at a time, but they all sound different.”

Young controls everything from an oversized, red wood pedalboard at the front of the stage. The slanted portion features five buttons: one for each of the four Whizzer presets, as well as a reverb kill. Across the top panel are switches for, variously, a Mu-Tron octave divider; an old, AC-powered MXR analog delay; a Boss Flanger in a “blue, cast-metal box”; and an Echoplex. All are housed inside the board. There is also an effect-loop bypass and mute/tune option, as well as a switch that Cragg refers to as the “ugly button.”

“That’s a very strange thing, and Neil only hits it when he wants to go to the next level,” he says. “It activates a unit that’s just totally freaked out.” Cragg laughs. “It’s adjusted how it definitely should not be adjusted. But Neil seems to like that.”

Thanks for digging that up! I can't imagine how he came up with that rig, but I guess that's why he's NY. So iconic is his distorted sound that it was recently used as a reference in another discussion I had regarding the gig efficacy of 5w tube amps. Someone said they couldn't be heard in the mix unless cranked hard enough to sound like distorted NY. I instantly heard that sound in my head and so could relate. Here's to going to the "next level." Thanks, NY.

And to loop this derail back to the OP's point, I really like the Tweed Deluxe (about all I have in common with NY, I'm afraid) and was amazed at the tone issued by my Mustang II on that amp model w/a little reverb after a speaker (12" Celestion) replacement. Amazing depth/warmth. At lowish volumes (my preference), at least, I could not tell it from tube amp - a very powerful tone. Before that speaker change, I could. I've also got a small tube amp (Bugera V through a 12" cab) that sounds very nice, as well, along with other s/s amps (Vox Pathfinder 15r 8", Peavey Envoy 10"), and they all have their place with me. Just depends on what sound I want to make and they can do it, even if I can't.

[Marley]

I've been all tube for the past 24 years or so, first with a Mesa Boogie then a Fender Bassman. Now I play a Yamaha THR100HD. I love it more than both of my previous amps combined. I defy anyone in a blind test to differentiate between my Yamaha or one of my tubes. You can't do as they sound nearly identical. I can get so many more tones and sounds out of my Yamaha than the Boogie or Fender and the built in dirty tones are all over the map and sound so good. Never would have thought I'd give up my tubes after all these years but I did.

[MartyGraw]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

Thanks for digging that up! I can't imagine how he came up with that rig, but I guess that's why he's NY. So iconic is his distorted sound that it was recently used as a reference in another discussion I had regarding the gig efficacy of 5w tube amps. Someone said they couldn't be heard in the mix unless cranked hard enough to sound like distorted NY. I instantly heard that sound in my head and so could relate. Here's to going to the "next level." Thanks, NY.

And to loop this derail back to the OP's point, I really like the Tweed Deluxe (about all I have in common with NY, I'm afraid) and was amazed at the tone issued by my Mustang II on that amp model w/a little reverb after a speaker (12" Celestion) replacement. Amazing depth/warmth. At lowish volumes (my preference), at least, I could not tell it from tube amp - a very powerful tone. Before that speaker change, I could. I've also got a small tube amp (Bugera V through a 12" cab) that sounds very nice, as well, along with other s/s amps (Vox Pathfinder 15r 8", Peavey Envoy 10"), and they all have their place with me. Just depends on what sound I want to make and they can do it, even if I can't.

Hey... No problem, glad to pull it up for you... I have a Mustang II as well that I bought for a specific purpose (acoustic leads with Sunrise p/u) and it served its purpose well.... A tube amp?, well no, but worked for me at the time.

[M Sarad]

I find tube amps deliver a rounder, smoother tone. I have played through Tweed Deluxe Amps for 35 years. I have had a Mesa Boogie, Duncan Convertible( my favorite when paired with a ‘59 Les Paul Special) Twin Reverb, Bandmaster, Bassman, and currently use he following:

‘58 Fender Deluxe Reverb
Victoria Tweed Deluxe
1980 Blackface Deluxe Reverb
PRS 50 Watt H Amp Head
Tech21 65 Watt Classic, my only solid state.

The Tech 21 gets used outside when my tube amps don’t seem to get enough power through extension cables. The built in Sansamp gets a decent lead tone, but the clean channel seems a bit harsh. I prefer my tube amps overall, relying on either a Tweed Deluxe or Deluxe Reverb fir the country band with a Tele or Strat and the PRS H with the blues band.

[Rodger Knox]

I remember when SS first came out, and everyone was so impressed at how clean the sound was. After awhile, that clean sound became too sterile, and tube amps came back into favor for their warmth.

[Nymuso]

When someone else carries it.