Bob Weir's Real Deal

[jomaynor]

Doug, would this pedal work with a (earlier model, no bass roll-off switch) Fishman Rare Earth Blend, which sums the output of the pickup and mic before it leaves the endpin jack?

I'm having difficulty understanding if the BWRD pedal's crossover, which shunts low frequencies to a pickup and high frequencies to a mic, would be feasible here without further modification to the REB.

[sdelsolray]

I could not find a link to the user manual and full specs on the product website. Has anybody found one?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by jomaynor

Doug, would this pedal work with a (earlier model, no bass roll-off switch) Fishman Rare Earth Blend, which sums the output of the pickup and mic before it leaves the endpin jack?

I'm having difficulty understanding if the BWRD pedal's crossover, which shunts low frequencies to a pickup and high frequencies to a mic, would be feasible here without further modification to the REB.

The only detail on how this works I have found is what was posted here earlier. Can't find a manual - it sure would be useful if companies posted more specifics about products like this.

However, based on MrMulligan's description, you'd be plugging your REB in as a mono pickup, it would split the highs and lows at the crossover frequency and let you adjust each separately. This is sort of like having bass/treble controls, but also being able to adjust the frequency breakpoint between them. Doesn't the REB allow you to wire for stereo? (Can't remember, but I think that's an option). If you did that and used a TRS cable, then you'd have the pickup and mic as separate sounds, with the crossover, etc. Subtle difference, but in mono, your trebles for example, would come from both the mag and the mic, while in dual source mode, the highs would come only from the mic. But that's just my interpretation of MrMulligan's explanation.

[jomaynor]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

The only detail on how this works I have found is what was posted here earlier. Can't find a manual - it sure would be useful if companies posted more specifics about products like this.

However, based on MrMulligan's description, you'd be plugging your REB in as a mono pickup, it would split the highs and lows at the crossover frequency and let you adjust each separately. This is sort of like having bass/treble controls, but also being able to adjust the frequency breakpoint between them. Doesn't the REB allow you to wire for stereo? (Can't remember, but I think that's an option). If you did that and used a TRS cable, then you'd have the pickup and mic as separate sounds, with the crossover, etc. Subtle difference, but in mono, your trebles for example, would come from both the mag and the mic, while in dual source mode, the highs would come only from the mic. But that's just my interpretation of MrMulligan's explanation.

Thanks for responding, Doug - the mono mode operation corresponds with what I was thinking. The Bob Weir's Real Deal pedal is intriguing, especially after reading MrMulligan's experiences with it, and I'll look into seeing how easily the REB can be wired for stereo.

I'm also curious as to how much more gain before feedback an external mic would get with the BWRD pedal when used in conjunction with a single source pickup. Conceptually, at least, something like an SM81, used with, say, an Amulet or a Dazzo, should be a superb sounding live rig, given the crossover flexibility of this pedal, if it indeed can give the external mic more GBF.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by jomaynor

Thanks for responding, Doug - the mono mode operation corresponds with what I was thinking. The Bob Weir's Real Deal pedal is intriguing, especially after reading MrMulligan's experiences with it, and I'll look into seeing how easily the REB can be wired for stereo.

I'm also curious as to how much more gain before feedback an external mic would get with the BWRD pedal when used in conjunction with a single source pickup. Conceptually, at least, something like an SM81, used with, say, an Amulet or a Dazzo, should be a superb sounding live rig, given the crossover flexibility of this pedal, if it indeed can give the external mic more GBF.

I'd think you'd have less gain before feedback by adding a mic compared to a simple pickup. With an internal mic, cutting out the lows, which mostly sound bad from an internal mic anyway, will certainly help with low feedback from the mic, but you can still get feedback from the highs. I almost always use a dual source system with an internal mic, I just use a high pass filter to cut out the lows, getting basically the same effect as this pedal as far as the mic goes. I try to avoid situations where I have to play "Grateful Dead"-level loud, tho :-)

When possible, using an external mic is always a great thing, when you have a sound system and room to support it. In most cases, when I can use a real, external mic, I don't bother with a pickup, the mic alone is hard to beat. It's not clear to me what role the external mic plays with this pedal, or why it would be better than just plugging the mic into the PA directly. Hopefully, it will make more sense once I get my hands on one.

[jomaynor]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I'd think you'd have less gain before feedback by adding a mic compared to a simple pickup. With an internal mic, cutting out the lows, which mostly sound bad from an internal mic anyway, will certainly help with low feedback from the mic, but you can still get feedback from the highs. I almost always use a dual source system with an internal mic, I just use a high pass filter to cut out the lows, getting basically the same effect as this pedal as far as the mic goes. I try to avoid situations where I have to play "Grateful Dead"-level loud, tho :-)

When possible, using an external mic is always a great thing, when you have a sound system and room to support it. In most cases, when I can use a real, external mic, I don't bother with a pickup, the mic alone is hard to beat. It's not clear to me what role the external mic plays with this pedal, or why it would be better than just plugging the mic into the PA directly. Hopefully, it will make more sense once I get my hands on one.

Looking forward to reading about your impressions.

[Doug Young]

Well, I got this pedal. Only spent a few minutes on it so far, but I find it a bit of an oddball thing. Not really sure who would find this useful.

In answer to my previous question: there is no power for an internal mic. So it will work with dual source systems that don't involve a mic (say mag+SBT, or UST+SBT), or those that use a dynamic internal mic (never heard of such a thing existing), or an active system that provides power for the mic internally, while still splitting them out into 2 signals. These do exist - the DTAR Wavelength is (optionally) one such system, I think the Fishman Rare Earth Blend is another. But it's not going to work with a passive K&K+Silver bullet in dual source mode. All that will happen is that you get the K&K coming thru with an adjustable-frequency low-pass filter, that again, acts like a tone control - a high frequency rolloff. The PR said that Bob Weir believes in dual source systems with a mic - it'd be nice if they gave more detail on what his setup is like, it might clarify what this pedal is meant to help with.

In mono mode, the controls just act like sort of shelfing treble and bass controls, but with the crossover point between them adjustable. Sort of like a weird semi-parametric EQ, except that you get to adjust the frequency where the controls switches over, as opposed to the more common sweepable midrange. In fact, oddly, you really have no control over midrange, the area that most guitarists want. The crossover is clearly quite sharp, and it's easy to get some weird resonances, honky sounds, like a wah pedal at a fixed location. I was able to adjust it to sound fine with a mono pickup, just not sure what it does for me that a more traditional EQ doesn't. The EQ is wider (shelving) - for example, if I have the crossover set to 1KHz, then the treble control boosts everything above around 1K by the same amount, a bit different than a more usual treble control that boosts a band around a certain frequency. Same for the pickup/bass control, which would turn up everything more or less below 1KHz evenly.

Dual source mode, as noted above is only useful with certain setups, and the odds that you have such a setup are low. So you'd need to plan your pickup system around this pedal to take advantage of this. I do have a guitar with this kind of setup, and wasn't terribly impressed with the results. I found the mic/pickup balance far easier to adjust using a Felix with separate EQ and level controls for pickup and mic.

The mic input, I haven't tried, since it requires an XLR to TRS cable that I'd have to wire up. I may try that yet, tho the idea of this seems especially odd to me. You can blend the mic and pickup, with the crossover engaged, so the lows come from the pickup and the highs from the mic. That's useful for an internal mic, since that tends to be boomy, (and is exactly what the Anthem among others does), but why you'd want an external mic that only picks up frequencies above the cutoff (anywhere between 300 and 3KHz) is not clear to me - seems like that would sound bad and isn't taking advantage of a good external mic on a guitar. You're not eliminating bleed or any of the other common issues with a live external mic, you're just creating a "tinny" mic on a stand. Must be something to it, but I'm not getting it. Maybe if I was playing in a stadium with the Grateful Dead.

On another note, the unit is quite noisy...

I give them credit for trying something different, it definitely requires a different mindset, and maybe it does something interesting onstage for a loud band, but in this brief tryout, it's not doing what I expected. I'll experiment a bit more, but unless I hit some eureka moment, it's probably going back. Interesting, tho.

[sdelsolray]

Perhaps that's why they haven't given access to (or written) a manual detailing its features and specifications.

[Doug Young]

it does come with a manual, fairly detailed. But fairly vague about the internal mic - it says it's useful for a "dual source system that combines 2 sources, like a pickup and a mic", but offers no clue how that would work without power. They do warn against plugging an electret into the mic input, due to the 48 volt power, so they're sort of aware of such things. My guess is that this is something that works with Bob Weir's setup, not yours or mine :-)

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

it does come with a manual, fairly detailed. But fairly vague about the internal mic - it says it's useful for a "dual source system that combines 2 sources, like a pickup and a mic", but offers no clue how that would work without power. They do warn against plugging an electret into the mic input, due to the 48 volt power, so they're sort of aware of such things. My guess is that this is something that works with Bob Weir's setup, not yours or mine :-)

They provide a manual to purchasers of the item, but do not provide a manual online for prospective purchasers? Weird.

For a pickup plus an internal, 2-wire, bias powered mic, a simple 48v 3-wire to 9v 2-wire converter, along with appropriate cabling, will allow use of an internal mic. When needed, I've used a K&K product which does exactly that.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

For a pickup plus an internal, 2-wire, bias powered mic, a simple 48v 3-wire to 9v 2-wire converter, along with appropriate cabling, will allow use of an internal mic. When needed, I've used a K&K product which does exactly that.

yes, tho it would have to be TRS to TS, not XLR. Simple enough to create, tho.

[MrErikJ]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

My guess is that this is something that works with Bob Weir's setup, not yours or mine :-)

Based on the capabilities of the unit, that’s seems likely. Bob’s worked with Alvarez for a long-time and has a signature Yairi that, I believe, came stock with the Alvarez SYS 600 system (or whatever) that was a UST combined with an internal mic. The onboard preamp was pretty robust but only had a dial to blend in the mic, no dedicated control over its frequencies. If Bob is still using this system, I can see how the Real Deal brings him value.

Side note: Alvarez no longer offers this system and just seem to partner with Baggs to feature the Element as their stock pickup. However, in the NAMM video with Matt Smith, he’s using an older (but lower end) Alvarez with the same SYS system and its UST and mic. Seems to support the idea that this was designed to further enhance the system in Bob’s Yairis.

[Slim]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

...it's not going to work with a passive K&K+Silver bullet in dual source mode.

Doug,
Thanks a lot for the in-depth review and answering the Trinity question. Really appreciate it!
Tim

[jomaynor]

Ok, thanks for the heads-up, Doug. Informative, as always.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

yes, tho it would have to be TRS to TS, not XLR. Simple enough to create, tho.

The K&K product I mentioned uses two cables. One is an XLRM-XLRF (between the K&K device and a standard XLR mic input with 48v phantom power turned on) and the other is a TS to TS (between the K&K device and the guitar which provides 9v bias power to the internal mic).