New QSC Set-Up, K10 vs. K8 & TouchMix!

[open-road-matt]

After over a decade of Bose L1 use, I am Bose-free for the first time in a long time and back to a "conventional" PA system.

I sold my Bose L1 Compact to buy an AER Compact 60/3 and sold my L1 Model 2 to buy two QSC K10s.

As can happen with gear, things got a bit out of hand!

After weighing the pros and cons, I decided to sell the AER and purchase a K8 and a mixer. Originally I was going to go with the ZED10FX. I couldn't quite get over the lack of channel mutes and figured, in for a penny, in for a pound and upgraded to the QSC TouchMix 8.

When my K8 showed up I spent about 24 hours going back and forth between the K8 and the K10 with an iPod, guitar and voice, outdoors, indoors, different rooms etc. They are quite different and I like things about both. I was tempted to send back one K10 for a second K8 so I could have the two K8s as mains and one K10 as a monitor or additional speaker if necessary.

I was worried that I might miss the 10's at some of my bigger shows so again, in for a penny, in for a pound, I ordered a second K8!

So next week, when everything arrives my set up will be 2 K10s, 2 K8s and the QSC TouchMix 8!

I will almost NEVER be using everything! What I will be doing is grabbing exactly what I need for the venue! Small rooms will get one or two K8s on sticks, maybe a K10 as a wedge if needed, maybe not. Really small, quick set up shows will get one K8 with guitar and vocals into the back (no external mixer.) And then I can expand as needed.

This is going to give me a ton of coverage and flexibility and the TouchMix is simply incredible! (although I would like to find a different case for it!)

There will be a couple of things I miss about my Bose and it may take me a bit of monkeying around to streamline this new set up. From the playing, setting up and tearing down I've done around the house, I'm just thrilled with it!

Just sharing and hoping to hear from others who use the K Series and the TouchMix.

Matt

[lschwart]

Nice set up. Enjoy!

Louis

[MikeTX]

Matt - I was WONDERING what in the Wide World Of Sports you were UP TO with all your recent posts and selling.. Selling ALL your Bose stuff - wow!

OK, to respond to your request for similar uses of this gear.. I don't do any solo performances anymore, but from my BAND perspective..

I've been major pro-Bose since the L1 came out, very low serial number. Seems like closer to 15 years than 10 maybe? One of my bands still uses the Classic L1's, 1 per player as intended. Another band doesn't like the approach as much and is more comfortable with mains, subs, mixers and monitors.

One guy sold his L1 Classic and went QSC - 4 K10's, kept his Bose T1 mixer initially, now has a Behringer that's controlled by an iPad. His setup sounded pretty good, I suggested the gear guy in band #2 give it a listen - he went nuts and bought a whole Suburban full of QSC stuff and an A&H mixer with 6 aux-out mixes for us. 2 K-12's as mains on sticks, a K-sub, 4 K-10's as wedge monitors (one of which I own personally, and now want to sell :-).. This was a couple years ago. Plan WAS to sell our Bose L1's, but that hasn't happened yet (I am VERY GLAD of this!)

Another guy, in Bose band #1, bought the QSC TouchMix 16, because he digs the tech..

Back to QSC band #2.. I think the guy who bought all the stuff still likes it, because he just LIKES that mixer/mains/monitors approach. Me? I think it sounds like mud. We've used it a number of times, inside and out, and I have NEVER heard the vocals sound anywhere near that great Bose vocal sound. Guitars sound lame too. Sorry. Guess I'm just still a Bose Guy.

When I DID play solo, I had adopted the Fishman SoloAmp as soon as that was available, never have used a Bose Compact, also have never used the QSC solo or for acoustic guitar. I played smaller rooms and rare outdoor areas, and the SoloAmp always sounded fine - great/excellent for acoustic guitar and just ok enough for vocal, I always thought. I never needed it, but I always had a good ol Bose (or two) to bring in if I ever needed more volume or coverage.

In both bands, I have gone Shure In-Ear, to make 100% sure I can hear myself without either NOT hearing myself or NOT blasting everybody out the other direction. I like the independence and the control.

Interesting about Bose band #1 - a few times we have tried to bring LESS - mixing everything thru the QSC TouchMix out to just TWO L1's as mains. This was NOT good either, in my opinion. Bose L1's do not do as well / were not intended to combine a bunch of instruments, voices, signals. For me, you lose the ability to hear YOURSELF, plus everything becomes garbled.. MUDDY! (LIKE the mixed sound thru the QSC gear.. duh, I'm starting to see a pattern here!)

So my conclusion here is - in EITHER band, I am going to be IN MY own Bose, first, period, always. Happy to line-out to the QSC, other Boses, any way the other boys want to do it, but I am going to HEAR ME, and so are the people in the crowd who come to hear me. Again - independence and control, another pattern here? :-} indeed.

MY GEAR? If I had time to try to sell stuff on eBay - I would sell the QSC K-10 for sure (no offense), I would sell my beloved SoloAmp (simply because I just don't play acoustic solo enough anymore), and I would also maybe sell one of my two Bose L1 Classics. I wouldn't mind having a Bose L1 Compact, for in-between gigs, even though they annoy me (another story). I think I would get the Behringer mixer over the QSC TouchMix, simply because of the "layout" - all the plugs are together in a separate little box, kinda like a stage snake connector, and the box creates the wifi connect to your iPad to control it all. There's NO controls on the box, zero. It's pretty cool.

Sorry for rambling so, and all this is probably not worth much anyway because I'm such a hard-headed rebel, but thus is the world of internet forums :-}

Matt, your new setup should work great for you - best luck to ya mate!
But, please allow me to see how long it is before you get on yet another gear rampage! I'll watch the classifieds!! In ANY case:

Keep Rockin! MIKE O'

[dcopper]

Matt,
I sold my BOSE L1B1 years ago and never regretted it. It was the original. Lugging that heavy oversized "home plate" base around was a killer. I also had to send it back to BOSE for a refurbishing once. I went to the SA220 but that died on me. I got that repaired and then sold it and picked up the AER 60/3 which I use and love.

I have been using an Alesis Mixer with the K8s whenever I need a bigger area to be covered. I like the dispersion pattern on the K8 better than the K10 and I do not have any problem with the bottom end on the K8s. If you engage the "deep" switch it is more than you will ever need. One K8 alone with a small mixer sounded far better to me than either the BOSE L1 or the SA220. Much easier to pack and carry too.

For another all in one solution, I use the Fishman Loudbox Performer. I really like this amp and it is great for vocals and works very well with my K&K + Sunrise equipped Taylors (as well as the AER and mixer + K8).

I think you will enjoy the great flexibility with your K8s and K10s. The new QSC Touch mixer is being used for all the clinics and live performances at my local guitar shop - and it is getting rave reviews. Best of luck and keep us posted on your set up. Although you have more "pieces" to carry if you need them all, your back will appreciate the lighter weight in the end.

davidc

[bayoubengal]

To further muddy up the waters, there is now this :
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=388681

[kurth83]

I own a single K10, but I auditioned all three (K8/K10/K12) in GC, took my own stuff in and played through their mixer.

I used to have an SRM-450, it is badly outclassed by the QSC's, they are wonderful speakers, and each had their own sound. The K8 lacked punch for my drums, the K10 had it, but the K12 clearly had more low-end, the low-end boost switch more than compensated for it on the K10 however. I didn't listen to the low-end boost switch on the K8, kinda wish I had at this point.

I wanted a light speaker, the SRM-450 is 52 lbs, the K10 is 32, much better for my aging back.

The K10 got my vote for best all-arounder of the three, assuming small and lightweight is one of your wants. The K8 also doesn't do wedge, is shaped like a rectangle, so I couldn't use it as a monitor. Except for that I would have bought a K8 and pressed the low-boost switch and been happy as a clam.

I have put drums, electric bass, and a little guitar through it, and it does what I need in every case (we are talking mid-volume levels, not loud shows, others can tell you how they fare there)

I have to say I love the K10, worth every penny.

Congrats on switching to QSC.

[Aaron Smith]

TouchMix 16 and K10's all around here. If I could have started with this setup 20 years ago, I could have probably saved myself $20k worth of PA gear that has come and gone. I will admit it's not quite as nice to mix without physical sliders and knobs, but there are SO MANY other advantages... it is such a flexible and powerful system.

[MikeBmusic]

Originally Posted by MikeTX

Back to QSC band #2.. I think the guy who bought all the stuff still likes it, because he just LIKES that mixer/mains/monitors approach. Me? I think it sounds like mud. We've used it a number of times, inside and out, and I have NEVER heard the vocals sound anywhere near that great Bose vocal sound. Guitars sound lame too. Sorry. Guess I'm just still a Bose Guy.

This sounds like mixing inexperience. EQing of each channel is important - mud is a build-up of low-mid frequencies. If you're running bass thorugh the PA too, then you have the low frequency issue that only separate subs will ultimately tame.

[Gutch]

I've been using the Bose L1 for 11 years now and have been very happy with it. Started off with the original model with two of the B1 bass cabs. Really liked the sound of it, though the "Home Plate" base was way too heavy. The portability and tonal flexibility of the T1 is a plus, and the fact that I can hang it on the mic stand in front of me is a big benefit when tweaking during shows.

Had an issue a couple years ago and called Bose for repair. They said they weren't fixing the originals any more, and offered a nice trade up offer to the Model 2. I went for it. The difference in size and weight of the tower base alone was worth it! Audience coverage is good, design is unobtrusive and, like MikeTx, I appreciate that it sits behind me so I can hear exactly what the audience hears.

That being said, I am intrigued by the number of folks moving over to the QSC gear. I can't say that I've heard them in action, so it may be time to seek them out and give them a listen.

[open-road-matt]

Hi Folks!
Sorry for the delay in jumping back in here. I was out of town for a wedding all weekend.

Thanks for all of the opinions and points of view. Much appreciated!

I sure don't want to start a QSC vs. Bose thing. The Bose stuff has served me very well for a long time. But one thing I am absolutely done with is the single source/"you hear what the audience hears" approach to live music!

I've struggled with this from the start. I always like more vocals than guitar in my monitor mix so when I first switched to the L1, I would often hear that I either needed to turn my guitar up or my vocals down until I got used to it.

That was fine but as a solo performer, I'm often stuck in weird spots and since I play outside all summer those spots are usually under tents, gazebos, low awnings, etc. As others who use the Bose stuff probably know, the Bose does not like a low roof! I'd drag my mic and guitar outside of the tent ( gazebo or whatever) and get the sound to my liking only to discover that once I stood back under the tent with the L1, the sound for me was almost unbearable. Tons of swirling highs, too much volume, etc. Unfortunately, as years passed, I found myself just "living with it" to get through the show.

Or I'd set up and sound check and then once the show started, needed to push more volume but not have the space to move any further from the sound system and again, just live with it.

My ears have become quite sensitive. I found the L1 Compact to be very harsh when it was behind me, same with the SA220. Anything other than quiet shows and my ears would start to bother me. My word of caution to anyone using a single source as both mains and monitors is to take care of your ears! What you think is OK may catch up to you!

The other consideration in making this switch is my voice. I have a weird voice. It's pretty low. Often times, with my L1 Model 2, I'd find my voice getting tired after about an hour or so of singing even when I could hear myself well. I couldn't figure out why.

My neighbor stopped by when I was comparing the K10s to the L1 Model 2 and he pointed out that with the Bose, I was "loosing" a ton of my voice. My voice through the L1 is missing a ton of the character that it has through the K10s so without realizing it, I think I was pushing a bit hard to try and create this missing character.

Needless to say, I'm very excited to get back to a separate monitor mix!

I do still have some logistical things to figure out.

Originally Posted by Aaron Smith

TouchMix 16 and K10's all around here.

Aaron, did you find a better case for your TouchMix? Maybe it isn't as big a deal with the 16 because I think QSC uses the same case for the 8 and the 16 and configures the inside differently. To me the included case seems huge! I'm thinking of trying the Pelican 1470 laptop case. There is enough room for the mixer and maybe the power supply and the case could fit in a messenger bag with all my cables.

I'm also wondering if anyone uses a dolly cart to haul the K series speakers. I have the tote bags for all of them and I'm thinking if I put them on their sides, I could stack them on the cart and haul them that way. I would hate to dent the grills so I need to figure that out too.

The other thing I know will take some getting used to is all the cables! That was a great thing about the Bose! With the Bose, the only cable of any length was the T1 cable. Now I have power cables and XLR cables for each speaker and possibly an extension cord or two depending on how far apart I have the speakers. All stuff to figure out!

My second K8 arrives on Tuesday so I'll have some fun comparing two 10's on sticks to two 8s on sticks!

Thanks again for the replies. I'd love to hear anything else people want to share about using this gear!

Matt

[Andy Howell]

Matt, I hall be very interested in the K8 / K 10 comparison. There seems to be little on the net that does this!

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by Andy Howell

Matt, I hall be very interested in the K8 / K 10 comparison. There seems to be little on the net that does this!

Hi Andy,
I spent a good solid day and a half going back and forth between one K8 and one K10. I went guitar and vocals into the TouchMix, Left out to K8 and Right out to K10 and then I'd pan both the guitar and vocals back and forth to compare the two. I did this in several rooms in our house and then outside.

To me they sound quite different. I don't know that I'll be able to explain the differences I heard eloquently but I'll do my best!

The K8, for lack of a better description, was a bit more Bose-like. The sound was tighter. I hear less of the sonic spectrum on both guitar and voice and the sound is smoother to me.

The K10 is more natural. I hear depth and nuance with the K10 that is missing in the K8. With the K10, I feel like I am able to get more of a "proper" mix, where the guitar and voice sit really nicely together with some space around each. Through the K8, my guitar and voice seem to be competing a bit. This is something I always struggled with while using my Bose L1 Model 2. It's like there is only so much room and I end up turning my vocals up just a tad so they sit on top of the guitar as opposed to sitting together in a good mix.

I know so far this all sounds pro-K10. Not so!

I had one guitar that really gave me some trouble on the low end through the K10. I was able to EQ it out with the TouchMix but I didn't need to do any EQing on the K8. Also, when I had these set up outside, the K10 seems to have a bit more of a "sweet spot" while the K8 kept more of an even dispersion of the sound across the same area. I could see how a person sitting in the sweet spot of the K10 could be getting a bit "too much" while someone just outside of that sweet spot could be fine.

So my conclusion is that in small, challenging spaces, especially indoors, I would probably opt for the K8s. I'd be loosing a bit sonically but gaining from the standpoint that they could be easier to EQ and offer a more even coverage.

Covering big spaces, again, especially outdoors, I'll go for the K10s.

I could change all of this once I can compare two of each or once I try all of this out in different venues.

Matt

[dcopper]

Hey Gutch,
Matt making the switch really says something for the QSC gear! I never regretted selling my L1 B1 set up. Initially I went to the SA220 but later bought a single K8 and to my ears, that sounded far better than the BOSE ever did. I hear the QSC setup of K10s and K12s all the time with guitar and vocals, often with the sub as well. It is fuller, cleaner and has really well rounded tone that I often could not get from my BOSE and i really drank the kool-aid on BOSE years ago. The vocals sound far better as well.

You can get the same "hear what your audience hears" with good placement of the QSC cabs. I used mine several times just like I would the BOSE or SA, behind me and above me. It was far better tone and really easier to carry than the whole BOSE thing. Like many I used the BOSE system for years. I just don't regret ever selling it now that there are so many excellent sound sources available.
davidc

[briggleman]

Just jumping in to give my opinion of the K8 vs K10. To tell you the truth... love them both. Our small sometimes band uses the K8 as a practice PA in our drummers basement. The vocals are very clear and the lead electric guitar along with my acoustic seem to come alive through the K8. (Vocal switch on, Deep switch on)

Doing the same setup with the K10 actually was a little less clear (only slightly!). The vocals were not as clear and the lead guitar sounded less dynamic,.... however my Acoustic sounded full and wonderful, much better through the K10. (Best when deep switch off and Vocal switch on)

We also realize that the dispersion on the K8 is so much wider so in that small confined space, so many factors.

The K8 has never been used as a full PA, only the K10 and it does the job magnificently! May try the K8 next time just to see how it goes.

We run our bass and electronic drums through separate amps.

[open-road-matt]

Hi Brad!
Good to hear your take on the K8 vs the K10!

My second K8 arrived this morning. I set everything up outside to try two K8s vs two K10s. Just guitar and vocals.

I started with the 8s. They sound great. I wasn't pushing a lot of volume, just enough to cover what I'd consider sort of an average patio/deck that you might find at a MN/WI bar/restaurant. The 8s filled the space easily!

My wife brought a chair down and listened as I tried out a couple of different guitars, mics, etc. I'm always trying to get her to hear the differences in various instruments, mics, preamps, etc. She's really patient about it and provides a good, solid, audience member perspective. She's been listening to me, both live and screwing around with gear at home for years. She keeps saying she doesn't know what to listen for but I'm always impressed with what she hears!

I played for her through the 8s for a little while and then, leaving the mixer settings exactly the same, switched to the 10s.

Wow!

We both instantly noticed a remarkable difference. The 10s sound louder and as I mentioned before, there is just so much more going on sonically with the 10s. More depth, more space, more clarity, etc. Just more!

I played a bit with the 10s and then went back to the 8s. Again, the 8s sounded great to me. It's not that the 8s are lacking in any way, there is just more going on with the 10s.

I can certainly see advantages to having a pair of each. My thoughts going into the summer music season is that this set up will give me a ton of flexibility. I'll be able to select the speakers best suited for the venue, use exactly what I need any leave the rest in the car. I still think I will almost always be using something on the floor as a monitor. I tried to set up just out in front of the 8s and I don't know! Maybe I'd get used to it but a big part of going this route is to enjoy a great monitor mix!

As a side note, I was really impressed with how quickly I was able to set up and tear down. I got a double speaker stand bag and in a minute or two I can have both speakers down and in their totes and both speaker stands folded up and in the bag.

I did order a Pelican 1470 for the TouchMix 8:

http://www.pelican.com/cases_detail/Case/1470/

That will be here tomorrow. I won't have a ton of foam around the mixer but I think that's OK. I don't plan on needing a ton of protection and The Pelican is small enough that I can put that in a Timbuk2 laptop back with all of my cables.

Matt