At last ...the StewMac Z Fret crowning file

[D. Churchland]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

Interesting weltanschauung ..." you have to remember that they are trying to sell tools, ergo they will make tools in order to sell them" ...well DUH ... just like every other similar commercial enterprise on the globe.

The thing with Stewmac is that you have to separate the wheat from the chaff. I concede that they do have some tools which could be classed as luxuries or indulgences, but the question I always ask myself is .."A : will this save me a significant amount of time compared to the alternative, and B: will this produce a better end result than using the alternative".

In the case of the centered Z file, it is a no-brainer ...it will halve the time taken to crown the frets and because there is now no need to mask the fretboard (as has to be done with a triangular file, even with a safe edge) time is saved there as well.

As far as multi-tasking is concerned, there are plenty of essential tools which are dedicated to one single purpose ...I have yet to find an alternate use for a string winder or a bridgepin reamer , to take two examples at random.

The point I'm making is that Stew Mac has been known to make things that are unitaskers just for the sake of being unitaskers. They work for some and not for others. These tools mitigate the need to develop skills/touch in certain jobs and I don't see that as a good thing personally. I for one have made/modified every fretting tool I use. why? because I wanted to and I wanted certain tools to do certain things that you couldn't buy as easily as you could make them. And most of the stew mac tools are just modified from tools from other professions. An example is the "Nut and saddle vise" that they sell. All it is is a modified drill press vise. Not knocking them as I have owned several of their tools and they've been helpful, I simply don't buy every new tool they make. But if it helps you do a good job, then go right ahead, it's no skin off me.

[Shuksan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by murrmac123
Actually, in an ideal world, guitar frets would look like the one on the left in this pic, with the width being four (or more) times the height

Originally Posted by Shuksan

Could you please explain why this would be ideal?

Crickets........

[redir]

A point will wear away faster then a rounded surface. Sorry but that's a fact. In nature all things tend to 'round off' and that is a natural resistance to erosion. As a geologist I've invested a lot of time into this study

So in the case of frets and guitar strings the string is the erosion force and the fret is the thing being eroded. If you shape the fret to be a point then it will in time round itself off as a defense mechanism. So if you round it off in the first place then you will have a stronger defense.

This argument is basically pulling teeth though. There is a very good argument for dressing frets to a point and that is that you will have the very best intonation and feel on the frets - for a slightly less limited time. But that's okay too.

FWIW I've invested in diamond fret files and all kinds of fret files but I've gone back to my trusty triangle file. The control that I get with that file is barre none.

[mirwa]

I think improving intonation from a V shaped fret to a C shaped fret is a mute point.

I have done a few of these now.

This supplier from sweden shows how much out of intonation most fretted positions are (as an example).




Steve

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by mirwa

This supplier from sweden shows how much out of intonation most fretted positions are (as an example).

Sorry, I can't in good conscience let this one slide...

Intonation and temperament are two different things. Intonation is how closely an individual instrument achieves desired pitches. Temperament defines what are those desired pitches.

Guitars are almost universally designed to achieve Equal Temperament. Equal Temperament is a compromise that allows one to play equally in - or out - of tune in every key. Equal Temperament sounds somewhat out of tune to most people - it isn't what the ear wants to hear.

A well setup guitar can achieve pitches that are in accordance with Equal Temperament to within a few 100ths of a semi-tone (cents). That is a measure of the accuracy of its intonation. However, even if it were dead-on - perfect intonation - most people will still hear it as being out of tune.

Now, with that said, the photo you have shown is of a fingerboard that is NOT designed to achieve Equal Temperament. What the odd placement indicates is not a measure of intonation, but, rather, the difference between systems of temperament. Even with that fret arrangement, it is just as dependent on intonation issues as a standard Equal Temperament fret placement - but also lacks the advantages of Equal Temperament, the ability to play uniformly in or out of tune in every key. One simply choses which compromise one prefers.

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Intonation and temperament are two different things. Intonation is how closely an individual instrument achieves desired pitches. Temperament defines what are those desired pitches.

Charles. I do not see anywhere where I referred to temperament. I was referring to intonation, have you ever tuned a string on one of these fretboards to check its intonation. You will note I also said "as an example". The intonation on these fretboards is pretty accurate and shows a large deviation in fret positions from a standard conventionally fretted neck (12th root of 2). The discussion was in regards to the difference between a v and c profile, and how it will influence the overall intonation.

If you want to have a discussion on temperament tuning, happy too, but that is not what this topic was about, that is what you have Interjected into the discussion and then clarified.

As a note on temperament tuning, I do modifications like the above and tune pianos for friends and family, tuning 6 octaves by ear (most notes being two to three strings), one learns very fast about temperament tuning.

Steve

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by Shuksan

Quote:
Originally Posted by murrmac123
Actually, in an ideal world, guitar frets would look like the one on the left in this pic, with the width being four (or more) times the height



Crickets........

I have no idea what "crickets" is supposed to signify, but if you are taking me to task for not replying to your question, I believe that the question has been answered throughout this thread.

Compare frets to speed bumps on the road ... consider what sort of profile would cause least shock to your car when driven over at speed ... you'll get the idea.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by mirwa

Charles. I do not see anywhere where I referred to temperament. I was referring to intonation, have you ever tuned a string on one of these fretboards to check its intonation. You will note I also said "as an example". The intonation on these fretboards is pretty accurate and shows a large deviation in fret positions from a standard conventionally fretted neck (12th root of 2). The discussion was in regards to the difference between a v and c profile, and how it will influence the overall intonation.

Then I don't understand the relevance of the non-standard (Just) fretting example as it relates to fret profile, V or C. Perhaps it is my ignorance as a result of not actually seeing one of these fretting arrangements in person.

[Shuksan]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

I have no idea what "crickets" is supposed to signify, but if you are taking me to task for not replying to your question, I believe that the question has been answered throughout this thread.

Compare frets to speed bumps on the road ... consider what sort of profile would cause least shock to your car when driven over at speed ... you'll get the idea.

I guess that analogy just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I would rather drive my car over a rounded speed bump than a sharp triangular-shaped one.

In any case, you are saying they are ideal for their effect on feel. Maybe so. I would have to play a guitar with those frets to be convinced. I hope I see a guitar that has them at some point to give them a try.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by mirwa

I think improving intonation from a V shaped fret to a C shaped fret is a mute point.

I have done a few of these now.

This supplier from sweden shows how much out of intonation most fretted positions are (as an example).




Steve

Absolutely ridiculous guitar in the photo!

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by Ned Milburn

Absolutely ridiculous guitar in the photo!

Yep.........

At around 1000-2000 dollars Australian for a conversion, you have got to ask yourself, Why ?.

I try to talk people out of it.

Steve