Unified Acoustic/Electric amplification?

[ethanay]

I am primarily an acoustic player and would love to consolidate my rig into fewer amps/speakers.

I was wondering if anyone was using a unified amplification system and modular signal chain across different instruments, such as acoustic (guitar, mandolin), bass, keyboard, and electric guitar? To minimize the total amount of signal chain gear that I need to keep track of, maintain, store, etc.

For more info, see: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/in...ution.2085928/

Hope this isn't considered a cross post, just wanted to get a perspective from the primarily-acoustic crowd!

Is this practical/impractical? Almost there? Pipe dream?

[Steve DeRosa]

Assuming you already have the necessary instruments, here's a simple plug-&-play two-cabinet setup based on equipment I've used at different times over the years - and if you don't need extensive outboard effects (or already own them) you can put this rig together for about $600-700:

• Fender KXR 200 keyboard amp: four independent channels, each with its own 3-band EQ/reverb, effects loop, XLR and 1/4" DI, and 200W into a 15" woofer and dual piezo tweeters; used to rent these all the time (sorry I didn't buy one) when I was doing multi-instrumental work back in the '90s, handled 6- and 12-string guitars, banjo, mando, and bass with equal facility - they can be had for $200-300 depending on condition, and if I ever found myself in a similar musical position rest assured I'll be seeking one out
• Bugera V22 combo: if you key this into the AGF search engine you'll find a whole bunch of happy owners, and with good reason - you're not going to find this combination of all-tube tone, power, and visual vibe (could be mistaken for an Egnater or Bad Cat if you removed the logo) for anywhere near the very reasonable $400 street price (less - sometimes substantially less - on coupon/holiday sale days at your favorite big box); I've owned mine since 2010 and it's my all-around amp - enough grunt to cover a 600-700 seat house clean as you need or dirty as you want, powers down to 15W for home practice, onboard digi-verb is one of the best I've heard in a built-in, built like a tank (these guys use machine screws to secure the panels - I've seen mega-buck boutique amps that don't even do that) and with the current (pun intended) Infinium circuitry tube swaps are a plug-&-play proposition

Only drawback is that neither one is a lightweight - my first-edition "blue-light" V22 tips the scales at 53 pounds (hefty for a 1x12") and the KXR 200 comes in at close to 90 - so you might want to consider renewing your gym membership in the interest of tone...

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by ethanay

I am primarily an acoustic player and would love to consolidate my rig into fewer amps/speakers.

I was wondering if anyone was using a unified amplification system and modular signal chain across different instruments, such as acoustic (guitar, mandolin), bass, keyboard, and electric guitar? To minimize the total amount of signal chain gear that I need to keep track of, maintain, store, etc.

For more info, see: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/in...ution.2085928/

Hope this isn't considered a cross post, just wanted to get a perspective from the primarily-acoustic crowd!

Is this practical/impractical? Almost there? Pipe dream?

When I was gigging a lot I used A RP-200 Digitech multi-effects pedal. I did use some of the effects, but I used it mostly for quickly going between instruments. I had several user patches programmed for different instruments and I adjusted the parameters so the tone / volume was similar when I switched. I programmed each patch for a specific instrument and also labeled the first one as "MUTE". I selected the MUTE patch, changed instruments, and then selected the appropriate patch, ACU GTR, TELE, MANDO, LAP STL, or FIDDLE. I fed the RP-200 output to a direct box, routing the outputs to the PA and sometimes to a small stage monitor amp if I felt like carrying one to a gig, otherwise just counting on the monitor mix.

It worked pretty well. If I knew the club had a reliable PA and sound person I often opted to depend on the monitor mix exclusively, even for electric guitar or bass work.

[ethanay]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Assuming you already have the necessary instruments, here's a simple plug-&-play two-cabinet setup based on equipment I've used at different times over the years - and if you don't need extensive outboard effects (or already own them) you can put this rig together for about $600-700:

• Fender KXR 200 keyboard amp: four independent channels, each with its own 3-band EQ/reverb, effects loop, XLR and 1/4" DI, and 200W into a 15" woofer and dual piezo tweeters; used to rent these all the time (sorry I didn't buy one) when I was doing multi-instrumental work back in the '90s, handled 6- and 12-string guitars, banjo, mando, and bass with equal facility - they can be had for $200-300 depending on condition, and if I ever found myself in a similar musical position rest assured I'll be seeking one out
• Bugera V22 combo: if you key this into the AGF search engine you'll find a whole bunch of happy owners, and with good reason - you're not going to find this combination of all-tube tone, power, and visual vibe (could be mistaken for an Egnater or Bad Cat if you removed the logo) for anywhere near the very reasonable $400 street price (less - sometimes substantially less - on coupon/holiday sale days at your favorite big box); I've owned mine since 2010 and it's my all-around amp - enough grunt to cover a 600-700 seat house clean as you need or dirty as you want, powers down to 15W for home practice, onboard digi-verb is one of the best I've heard in a built-in, built like a tank (these guys use machine screws to secure the panels - I've seen mega-buck boutique amps that don't even do that) and with the current (pun intended) Infinium circuitry tube swaps are a plug-&-play proposition

Only drawback is that neither one is a lightweight - my first-edition "blue-light" V22 tips the scales at 53 pounds (hefty for a 1x12") and the KXR 200 comes in at close to 90 - so you might want to consider renewing your gym membership in the interest of tone...

Thanks for the suggestions! The weight of the KXR probably eliminates it from consideration. I don't really need tons of input, but just something that will sound good. I wonder if the Tech 21 Power Engine Deuce might equate to a much lighter weight "single channel" version of the KXR? At that point, I am tempted to put an electric guitar-style preamp and cab sim in front of it to turn it into an eguitar rig too.

That V22 (especially the head version, which allows to split up the weight) looks really interesting! I will check out the forum posts. I really love the idea of the Vox AV30/AV60 but have concerns about reliability/manufacturing quality. I am in a position to spend a little more for quality and reliability, at least that is what the spreadsheet of my gear downsizing is telling me

Originally Posted by Rudy4

When I was gigging a lot I used A RP-200 Digitech multi-effects pedal. I did use some of the effects, but I used it mostly for quickly going between instruments. I had several user patches programmed for different instruments and I adjusted the parameters so the tone / volume was similar when I switched. I programmed each patch for a specific instrument and also labeled the first one as "MUTE". I selected the MUTE patch, changed instruments, and then selected the appropriate patch, ACU GTR, TELE, MANDO, LAP STL, or FIDDLE. I fed the RP-200 output to a direct box, routing the outputs to the PA and sometimes to a small stage monitor amp if I felt like carrying one to a gig, otherwise just counting on the monitor mix.

It worked pretty well. If I knew the club had a reliable PA and sound person I often opted to depend on the monitor mix exclusively, even for electric guitar or bass work.

Someone else on The Gear Page mentioned a similar rig (using a Line6 Helix). Pedal, speaker, two cables. Very simple setup/teardown. But knowing myself, I worry about having too many things to explore and tweak/play with that distracts from my chops/vocab/rhythm/song learning work. I have OCD and limitations on what I can tweak is really helpful. Probably why I am mostly acoustic, lol. I tweak tuning, technique mostly. A little ambience. Rest of it is just playplayplay. Why I love my Fire Eye preamp. 2 knobs: Boost and treble.

I also wonder if I am going about this wrong. A one size fits all rig is turning out to be really complex, too. Maybe I shouldn't try to go about this trying to put together a one size fits all rig. Maybe that's a different form of complexity, and it might actually be simpler just to have discrete solutions for each instrument. I don't know.

I appreciate all the input and leads. I might have to do some more (re)thinking on this.

[roylor4]

High quality Powered speaker with a mixer for the acoustic stuff (QSC, Yamaha).

Small amp or amp head with a good sounding line out or mic'ed through the board for blowing harp and electric guitar - just use an AB switch to change instruments.

Steve really knows his stuff about Bugera (and stuff in general, actually - I bought the V5 largely on his recommendation and gig with it A LOT) - but his approach is different than mine regarding weight and size. I gig with a Corolla (or 2). And an amp like the V22 would pretty much fill my trunk.

[ethanay]

Thanks for this recommendation.

I've given up on a completely unified amplification strategy for now, and am just looking at strategic downsizing with some discrete solutions that can serve in flexible roles as needed (holy crap just read that back to myself and I sound like a corporate consultant talking about layoffs).

I just picked up a Vox AV30 for a fantastic price, and I'm going to AB it with my 1958 Gibson GA-5 2x8 mod (internal speaker plus I built a custom 1x8 extension cab, and had an amp tech do a completely reversible pancake jack mod on a back panel), 1966 Gibson GA-20 RVT, and my main swiss army workhorse, my Rivera Chubster 40 (which is ahhhmazing, always sounds fantastic and can do so many different things well, but size and weight and biasing oh my). If I end up not missing the tube amps that much, then I might end up saying goodbye to them. The AV30 sure is a heckuva lot lighter than the GA-20 and the Rivera. We'll see.

I've heard the high gain tones aren't great, but I don't really do high gain, and also heard it's mostly just an issue with people cranking the gain and keeping the volume low and expecting something magical. The amp allows you to crank the tube power section and dynamically attenuate or amplify with a built-in solid-state amp, so we'll see...! I don't ever use much anything beyond chorus, delay and reverb (and some trem), so it also hits those notes as well.

As for the other stuff, I'm considering an Ashdown C112 for bass and for the left/mono keyboard channel, and as an acoustic amp backup. 180w RMS and 27lbs, and full 300watts with an extension cab. And then use my 150watt Traynor for the right channel.

That would bring me down to a manageable 4-5 amps. Funnily enough, I'm actually considering the Vox Amplug2s (ac30 and blues models) as a backup, through the Traynor. I tried them through a PA and they actually sounded fantastic, to my ears! Got me thinking...how much amp do I *really* need (especially as a primarily acoustic player)? That experience is also what piqued my interest on the AV30.

[YamahaGuy]

My large pedalboard starts with a Pog, then compressor, distortion, drive, 10 band eq, tube pre-amp, volume pedal, tuner, delay, noise gate, chorus, reverb, looper and serves to provide a great platform for electric and acoustic alike going straight to a pa. For acoustic, I run the pre and post gain on the heart of the system -- the tube preamp that I've put a gritty, quick to break up 12ax7 in -- at 12 o'clock, and for the electrics to get a nice warm tube tone I run those levels both at 3 o'clock. For some of my acoustic guitars, I leave the 10 band eq off. It was 5+ years in the making, but there isn't any tone I can't get. And believe it or not, running dry through it is really "quiet" and free of noise. I very rarely have to use the noise gate.

A pa system with a sub handles this very well.

[ethanay]

Wow, That approximates what I was originally thinking...!

how much experimentation did you have to do with pedal order to get to that setup? Do you always plug into the very front, and just turn on/bypass pedals as needed? Do you have a loop kit to take certain pedals out of the signal chain completely?

[YamahaGuy]

Originally Posted by ethanay

Wow, That approximates what I was originally thinking...!

how much experimentation did you have to do with pedal order to get to that setup? Do you always plug into the very front, and just turn on/bypass pedals as needed? Do you have a loop kit to take certain pedals out of the signal chain completely?

I always plug into the front of my pedal chain. The tube pre is always on. It took a few tries to get the order right for me. There are lots of websites that recommend orders for effects. I use the eq all the time with electrics. The ones that get the most use are reverb, compression and delay. At this time I have no loop kit to take pedals put of the chain. So, yeah, just leave off pedals you don't want to use. My chain is pretty clean sounding.

[geewhiz]

Helix into a good FRFR, maybe with judicious application of some good sounding IR's.

[ethanay]

Originally Posted by YamahaGuy

I always plug into the front of my pedal chain. The tube pre is always on. It took a few tries to get the order right for me. There are lots of websites that recommend orders for effects. I use the eq all the time with electrics. The ones that get the most use are reverb, compression and delay. At this time I have no loop kit to take pedals put of the chain. So, yeah, just leave off pedals you don't want to use. My chain is pretty clean sounding.

Cool! So you don't use a cab sim? Everything I have read says that it is an important part of getting a decent electric guitar sound out of a full-range system (especially for any distortion, less so for clean sounds), but also that post-pre EQ can act in much the same way as a cab sim. I've read that the most important piece of a cab sim is basically a combined HP/LP filter, taking out the harsh high's and muddy lows. EG this "too much information" article really resonated with me and my experience of guitar in the mix:

http://www.bensonamps.com/tech-articles

My plea is that players view electric guitar (in most situations) as a mid- range instrument. Don’t worry about getting a fat bass at 100Hz. Forget about everything over about 5k. Give the bare minimum in the bass and treble. No one will ever hear them, and it will cause problems. Don’t make your sound guy or mix engineer roll the bass and treble frequencies out of the mix...you’re giving him too much information.

[YamahaGuy]

I use no cab sim. The EQ and tube pre really get my tone dialed in.

[ethanay]

Ok cool, I thought that might be the case. I have heard and understand that the most important part of a cab/speaker sim is a careful EQ that basically serves as a LP/HP filter

What tube pre and EQ do you use out of curiosity? Actually would love to know more about your entire signal chain, as that is pretty much exactly what I am trying to do!

I am putting together a small FX pedal rig that is a step in this direction.

[ethanay]

Here is my current (draft) signal chain, which allows for Wet/Dry, stereo or clean/dirty (or some combination thereof) signal routing. Lots for me to play/experiment with. The idea is to have a modular setup for my acoustic, electric and bass instruments.

Board 1 Preamp: Fire Eye Red Eye > Korg Pitch Black Tuner > Keeley GC-2 Compressor > EQ1 (Empress ParaEQ) > EHX POG > EQD Night Wire
Board 2 Distortion: Brimstone XD-2 > RevivalDrive Compact > EQ2 (Tech21 Q/Strip) > CabDryVR
Board 3 FX: Nautila Mod > Obscura Delay > Polara Reverb > JamMan Express (yeah, this one is all Digitech, I just really liked how they designed all these pedals!)

When I am playing acoustic or clean bass I will use board 1 (+3 optional). For more aggressive bass and (non-clean electric) guitar, I add in board #2 inbetween. I haven't built the rig yet, still am sourcing all the parts.

So, yeah that is the context I am working in/toward. In all honesty, I hate fiddling around with gear, and I want to get this over with so I can get back to focus on the music ASAP! But I had to try the pedal-based format at least to rule it out.

[YamahaGuy]

My pedal board pedals (in order)

Pog Nano
MXR compressor
MXR distortion
MXR drive
MXR 10 band eq
Ernie Ball VP jr
Dedicated tuner out to Boss TU-3
ART MP tube pre with Sovtek 12ax7
MXR Carbon Copy delay
MXR smart gate
TC Eletronics Corona Chorus
MXR digital reverb
Electro-Harmonix 360 looper