Sugestions for recording OLD Classical guitar.

[ediverudt]

I am going to do some reference recordings of a very old classical guitar (100 + years) The main objective is to capture the essence of the guitar without coloring the sound.

My objective is not to make it sound better just to make it sound the same as in person (amazing bass with punchy highs notes).

I am looking for good recording tips as well as recomendations for Mic(s) and placement.

I will be recording with a converter that uses the same parts as the pro tools HD rig with a much shorter signal path and using Samplitude 11 for its neutral algorithms.

I own no microphones right now and will make a purchase decision based off of advice given on this forum. I am not necessarily looking to economize or to get one mic that will work for both voice and guitar or anything like that.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[mr. beaumont]

I'm no expert on mics (hopefully some one else will chime in) but this seems like a call for two condensers, one pretty close pointed near the neck/body join, and one a few feet away in a room with a nice natural reverb.

[theotigno]

I would try two Behringer ECM8000's, one @ the 12th fret and one around the bridge. Both of them around 12"-18" away from the guitar. They're pretty flat mics and as omni-directional microphones, they won't have the issue with proximity effect.

[moon]

http://www.thomann.de/gb/schoeps_sch...mc_641_set.htm

[Herb Hunter]

Obviously, you would want high-fidelity microphones which means those with as flat a frequency response as possible. You are likely to get the most accurate results with a pair of small diaphragm condenser mics. Unless you have a rather large budget (the schoeps mc 641 costs around $1,700), you might want to consider a pair of Shure SM81 microphones. You can get fairly good results with cheaper mics if your budget can't accommodate those in the $350 range.

http://www.shure.com/idc/groups/publ..._specsheet.pdf

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...Condenser.html

Regarding mic placement, do you want the recording to reflect the way the guitar sounds to the guitarist or the listener?

[D. Churchland]

In my opinion, anytime you record acoustic guitar you should strive to make it sound like your only sitting 3 feet away from the person who's playing it.

I would definitely recommend at least 1 Large Diaphragm condensor mic (do not buy anything by Behringer) and at least 1 Small diaphragm (Again, no Behringer)

My personal favorite recording setup is with 2 LDCs. A good technique for finding the "sweet spots" to record the guitar at is to have someone else play in the style that you're going to be recording in and then lean your ear relatively close to the instrument, move your head around so that your ear hears the instrument in different places and such. When you find a spot that sounds significantly richer than another, try putting one mic there, then repeat the process and find a spot that provides either a contrasting or complimentary tone to the first one and place the other mic there. Don't be afraid to experiment!

[ediverudt]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

Regarding mic placement, do you want the recording to reflect the way the guitar sounds to the guitarist or the listener?

That is a good question I will say I don't know what this guitar sounds like to the listener because I don't let anyone else play it ( no entirely true but mostly true)

If I was trying to capture the sound that I am hearing as a guitarist what should I do?


Also I really appreciate the advice on mics allot of people are telling me Schoeps are really good stuff. Is there anything else that compares for neutrality and low noise?

[moon]

Originally Posted by ediverudt

If I was trying to capture the sound that I am hearing as a guitarist what should I do?

There's no precise formula. Every guitar and every room is different. I think the best starting point would be a matched pair of CMC641's in XY configuration. Move the mics around until you find a good position. The room can have a big effect on the sound - you might need to look at room treatment. You'll also need very good monitoring equipment to pick up on subtle differences in sound.

Also I really appreciate the advice on mics allot of people are telling me Schoeps are really good stuff.

Not sure what else to suggest. This is a bit out of my price range to be honest. People like the CMC641's because they're incredibly transparent. That's a no-compromise solution if you've got a very special instrument which you want to capture in all its glory.

[theotigno]

Originally Posted by Will Kirk

I would definitely recommend at least 1 Large Diaphragm condensor mic (do not buy anything by Behringer) and at least 1 Small diaphragm (Again, no Behringer) ...

For the most part, I agree with this statement, except for the ECM8000 which is an affordable measurement mic. It's a small-diaphram omni condenser microphone, and as such won't color the sound & won't have proximity effect to worry about. While I wish I had some sound samples for you, I recently got it back after spending the past 3 years at a church I do sound for. There are a lot of quotes on the microphone online, though (search for the microphone name + "Harvey Gerst").

The reason why I suggested this setup is because he didn't want to have any coloration on the guitar and it *seems* like a measurement mic would be the best option to get "near ears" effect (versus a LDC which would be more "flattering" - aka: add color - to the sound). Being an omni, it would also capture a wider field than just the cardioid pattern, which limits the "viewable" area. Also, faster transients, etc ...

You could go with an Earthworks measurement microphone instead, but to get a pair would be a much larger investment.

If you're looking at preamps, I haven't tried these, but the Grace 101 or the P-Solo seem like good choices.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by ediverudt

I am going to do some reference recordings of a very old classical guitar (100 + years) The main objective is to capture the essence of the guitar without coloring the sound.

Hi ediverudt…
If it is to be authentic through headphones, then a mid-side array would perhaps provide very accurate detail, and depending on the room I'd decide on the distance by playing around with it.

Through speakers I'm not sure what I'd recommend.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by ediverudt

I am going to do some reference recordings of a very old classical guitar (100 + years) The main objective is to capture the essence of the guitar without coloring the sound.

My objective is not to make it sound better just to make it sound the same as in person (amazing bass with punchy highs notes).

I am looking for good recording tips as well as recomendations for Mic(s) and placement.

I will be recording with a converter that uses the same parts as the pro tools HD rig with a much shorter signal path and using Samplitude 11 for its neutral algorithms.

I own no microphones right now and will make a purchase decision based off of advice given on this forum. I am not necessarily looking to economize or to get one mic that will work for both voice and guitar or anything like that.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Please describe the room in which you will be recording.

I ask this first for three reasons. First, the room will influence which mics should (or could) be used. Second, the room will influence which mic placements should (or could) be used. Third, depending on which mics and mic placements are used, the room will have a major, moderate or minor impact on the recorded sound.

[alohachris]

Aloha Sdelsolray,

You've outdone yourself. Those five lines loaded with info & key questions read like a Room Treatment Haiku. Bravo!

If only I could cut my writing down to the barest essentials of points like that. Oh well...

Suffice it to say that YES, the room you use to capture that old guitar's sound will be KEY to the process. And selecting & controlling the recording room or setting up temporary room treatment is totally up to you, ediverudt.

Perhaps renting some time at a studio maybe more cost-effective & less hassle if this is only for the recording of that one instrument.

Some DIY room treatment resources if you don't have studio access:

http://www.uline.com/BL_7900/Moving-...FQgPbAodbk2--A

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...-on-the-cheap/

http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

alohachris

[sdelsolray]

Hi CHris.

I thought I'd start with the OP's room, since avoiding discussing it first may lead to less than optimum mic and engineering choices. This is perhaps even more important for recording classical guitar (as opposed to steel string acoustic) because of the traditional way in which a listener hears it and because of the recording engineering needed to emulate that listening experience.

[ediverudt]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

Please describe the room in which you will be recording.

I ask this first for three reasons. First, the room will influence which mics should (or could) be used. Second, the room will influence which mic placements should (or could) be used. Third, depending on which mics and mic placements are used, the room will have a major, moderate or minor impact on the recorded sound.

the room is a marble floored ball room with a marble stage and a concave glass back wall with a textured surface. it has relatively low 12 foot ceilings and open entry ways that go off into other parts of the house including the bar, entry way, and library. the total "ball room is relatively small at only 50x 45 feet. all the walls are concrete and the ceiling has a dropped recessed lighting loop so that there are minimal opposing surfaces and the open arches to the rest of the rooms provide for very little echo while giving the concert hall feel as the library is almost as large and the entry way is half the size.


I can also record any ware I want to in the house and have my choice of several larger rooms with high ceilings and hard floors.

As a side note the back wall in the ball room is concave as stated above and would provide for some interesting satellite dish acoustic effects ( you know the wispier and hear it in your own ear and other effects that domed surfaces (concave) have on sound. Originally the plan was to record by playing into the wall and placing the mic in the sweet spot created my the wall and possibly using a wooden divider behind me or to the side ( similar to the things lady's change behind in John Wane movies while talking, except made out of spruce with hols cut in it)

Once again than you for all your help I really appreciate it.

About paying for a studio.
Most of my equipment is the same or better as what is being used in studios around here and quite honestly I am a little bit too particular about things like crummy mic cables or bad volume pots or poor power quality feeding my gear to make recording anything around here an enjoyable experience. ( this is at my home in Mexico)

As a fan of surround audio I would like to produce a few 7.1 surround recordings at some point in the future but for now I am just trying to get reference quality accurate recordings for the purpose of analysis and before and after sound samples ( Ivory nut before and after Ivory saddle before and after tap plate before and after ect.)

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by ediverudt

the room is a marble floored ball room with a marble stage and a concave glass back wall with a textured surface. it has relatively low 12 foot ceilings and open entry ways that go off into other parts of the house including the bar, entry way, and library. the total "ball room is relatively small at only 50x 45 feet. all the walls are concrete and the ceiling has a dropped recessed lighting loop so that there are minimal opposing surfaces and the open arches to the rest of the rooms provide for very little echo while giving the concert hall feel as the library is almost as large and the entry way is half the size.


I can also record any ware I want to in the house and have my choice of several larger rooms with high ceilings and hard floors.

As a side note the back wall in the ball room is concave as stated above and would provide for some interesting satellite dish acoustic effects ( you know the wispier and hear it in your own ear and other effects that domed surfaces (concave) have on sound. Originally the plan was to record by playing into the wall and placing the mic in the sweet spot created my the wall and possibly using a wooden divider behind me or to the side ( similar to the things lady's change behind in John Wane movies while talking, except made out of spruce with hols cut in it)
...

Consider (i) a pair of omnis (and the various mic placements normally used with omni pairs), (ii) a Figure 8 and cardioid (M/S technique) and/or a pair of Figure 8 (Blumlein). All of these will take great advantage of the rooms you describe. A pair of cardioid (or hypercardioid) will allow for less room and more source depending on the mic placements.

As to brands, etc., there are many to choose from. Some possible suggestions (in no particular order):

1) Pair Neumann TM170 - a pair of multipattern mics will let you do all the above mic placements and more (the coincident ones). Other pairs here could include AKG 414, Gefell MT70 and Shure KSM44, among many others.

2) Modular mic system - these systems separate the capsules from the mic amp bodies. Take a look at Schoeps. A pair of mic bodies (CMC6) plus pairs of capsules (omni, cardioid and figure 8) will cost plenty though.