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  #31  
Old 06-10-2019, 11:39 AM
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I work in the pro audio environment. My company has probably somewhere on the order of eighty workstations spread between audio and video. When Apple stopped really supporting the pro community we converted over to PC in order to survive. No surprise there.

We have a computer engineer in our shop who can put together a top-end computer that HP would charge $12k for and it costs us about $4k. That's a top-end DAW box. That means we would have about $9,000 invested in any new PC box, including large screen monitors, interface cards, SSdrives, AND A FULL SUITE OF APPS AND PLUG-INS. Uh, and monitor stands. Our video boxes don't cost much more. All these are also quiet, with dynamic fans.

The only people and companies I know who would be interested in the new Mac Pro would be Mac diehards and those who who want bragging rights for the most expensive box around. I think Apple's reach has exceeded its grasp this time.

It's sad because Apple industrial design is so attractive to me.

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  #32  
Old 06-10-2019, 11:57 AM
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My last fast and quiet music computer I built (in 2013) cost me about $1400 in parts. Definitely the way to go money wise.
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  #33  
Old 06-10-2019, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
We have a computer engineer in our shop...
If I had a computer engineer to sort out issues that arise, I'd likely have already gone the PC route. At heart I'm a PC guy. I still keep a PC desktop (my current PC is one I built about 6 years back) and that's my main computer for everything but music. But PCs develop too many issues (drivers ...ugh). And while there's much about the Mac OS that I find counter-intuitive, the computers never give me issues.

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Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post
HI jim
Keep us posted. Max Yuryev has shared some pretty extensive and detailed builds in the past on YouTube. He also does other reviews on non-hacked Macs.
Anyone who has done even a little research into Hackintoshes knows more about them than me but if I see some promising designs I'll pass them along.
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  #34  
Old 06-10-2019, 09:25 PM
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Jim, my self-built Windows 10 PC is awesome for recording music, editing high resolution photos, and even gaming. I don't have any driver or other issues, and I have quite a lot of audio plugins and virtual instruments.

For reference, my PC contains an Intel i9-9900K CPU (8 cores at 5.0 Ghz, 16 cores with hyperthreading), 32 GB of Corsair Dominator RAM (@1600 Mhz), ASUS ROG Maximus XI Extreme motherboard, Corsair AX-1200i power supply (fan does not run when recording), EVGA GeForce RTX-2080 video card, Samsung 970 Pro 1 TB M.2 SSD boot drive, Samsung 970 Evo 2 TB M.2 SSD for audio recording (and storing photos), two Samsung 860 Evo 1 TB SATA SSD's for virtual instruments and plugins, WD Black 6 TB SATA hard drive for backup, and Pioneer BD-RW optical drive. I use an RME FireFace 802 for my audio interface when recording music.

I have high quality, quiet case fans (120mm and 140mm), but I recently installed a military grade switch on the case to turn off the case fans when I record. My mics are about 8 to 10 feet from my PC, and even though they don't directly point towards the PC, I was picking up a small amount of noise.

I have built at least 4 previous PC's for music recording, and the only driver issues I had on any of those were from a Universal Audio UAD-2 PCIe card.

I only record my music as a hobby, and obviously don't spend as much time at it as many others on this forum, so maybe I have just been lucky in the equipment I chose.

I think both modern Macs and PC's can be used equally well for recording music/audio. A lot of it boils down to what you are comfortable with and like using. Like Derek, I prefer the flexibility of building a PC and choosing each specific component, including the case. Building PC's is also enjoyable to me, and I like personalizing them to my taste.
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  #35  
Old 06-11-2019, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Cocobolo Kid View Post
Jim, my self-built Windows 10 PC is awesome for recording music, editing high resolution photos, and even gaming. I don't have any driver or other issues, and I have quite a lot of audio plugins and virtual instruments....
I appreciate the input but I've seen too many FB threads in various audio groups where folks were asking help to solve PC problems. Going the PC route is just not something I'm likely to consider. I'll hold out hope that Apple will eventually come out with a Mac Pro aimed at the audio community.
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  #36  
Old 06-11-2019, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Cocobolo Kid View Post
Jim, my self-built Windows 10 PC is awesome for recording music, editing high resolution photos, and even gaming. I don't have any driver or other issues, and I have quite a lot of audio plugins and virtual instruments.

For reference, my PC contains an Intel i9-9900K CPU (8 cores at 5.0 Ghz, 16 cores with hyperthreading), 32 GB of Corsair Dominator RAM (@1600 Mhz), ASUS ROG Maximus XI Extreme motherboard, Corsair AX-1200i power supply (fan does not run when recording), EVGA GeForce RTX-2080 video card, Samsung 970 Pro 1 TB M.2 SSD boot drive, Samsung 970 Evo 2 TB M.2 SSD for audio recording (and storing photos), two Samsung 860 Evo 1 TB SATA SSD's for virtual instruments and plugins, WD Black 6 TB SATA hard drive for backup, and Pioneer BD-RW optical drive. I use an RME FireFace 802 for my audio interface when recording music.

I have high quality, quiet case fans (120mm and 140mm), but I recently installed a military grade switch on the case to turn off the case fans when I record. My mics are about 8 to 10 feet from my PC, and even though they don't directly point towards the PC, I was picking up a small amount of noise.

I have built at least 4 previous PC's for music recording, and the only driver issues I had on any of those were from a Universal Audio UAD-2 PCIe card.

I only record my music as a hobby, and obviously don't spend as much time at it as many others on this forum, so maybe I have just been lucky in the equipment I chose.

I think both modern Macs and PC's can be used equally well for recording music/audio. A lot of it boils down to what you are comfortable with and like using. Like Derek, I prefer the flexibility of building a PC and choosing each specific component, including the case. Building PC's is also enjoyable to me, and I like personalizing them to my taste.
Just wondering what DAW you run
Honestly I am a dyed in the wool Mac guy BUT with the base on this new Mac Pro being so high, and 8 PCIe slots being about twice the number I need. And then trying to Run PTHD Native with either iMac or Mac Mini both requiring an outboard PCIe chassis unit run on Thunderbolt, a PC solution is not beyond consideration .

Now looking down the road I am certainly curious about a DYI PC alternative
As I understand it I am hearing Windows is not as problematic with Pro Tools as it used to be (which would likely be the deciding factor for me) And I have no clue as to what components or brands to order . But your system specs seem pretty good for me
I do also dabble in video editing (currently Apple Final Cut Pro X) so would want a fast Graphics card
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  #37  
Old 06-11-2019, 10:56 AM
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I do also dabble in video editing (currently Apple Final Cut Pro X)...
Would you be able to run that program on a PC?
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  #38  
Old 06-11-2019, 12:41 PM
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Would you be able to run that program on a PC?
No but there are a number of Video editing programs for Windows
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  #39  
Old 06-11-2019, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Just wondering what DAW you run.
I have been a long time Cakewalk Sonar user, but also use Presonus Studio One Pro v4. Both are fine for my hobbyist needs, and both seem fairly intuitive. Most importantly, I don't have crashes or other issues with either of them.
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  #40  
Old 06-15-2019, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
I work in the pro audio environment. My company has probably somewhere on the order of eighty workstations spread between audio and video. When Apple stopped really supporting the pro community we converted over to PC in order to survive. No surprise there.
A good number of Pro users did just that, and switched to PC during the entire Mac Trash Can debacle

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We have a computer engineer in our shop who can put together a top-end computer that HP would charge $12k for and it costs us about $4k. That's a top-end DAW box. That means we would have about $9,000 invested in any new PC box, including large screen monitors, interface cards, SSdrives, AND A FULL SUITE OF APPS AND PLUG-INS. Uh, and monitor stands. Our video boxes don't cost much more. All these are also quiet, with dynamic fans.
I don't think there is any doubt that with the huge range of options that someone can build a PC that is more specifically targeted for individual need and save money as well over Apple ......However the fly in ointment, is that you are computer savvy enough to understand what the specs actually mean for each component types and brands, including case, fans, motherboard, CPU, GPU, PCIe slots , types of drives and slots, etc. Otherwise you are going to have to pay to have one built ( and hope they know what your specific needs actually are and what to spec for that) which would mean in your example $4k plus labor and support cost factor



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The only people and companies I know who would be interested in the new Mac Pro would be Mac diehards and those who who want bragging rights for the most expensive box around. I think Apple's reach has exceeded its grasp this time.
Perhaps specifically among those you know and arguably people buying specifically for only audio as opposed to video. BUT According to all the current discussions going on and the broader picture and particularly for video and a few other pro tasks , this is not really a totally accurate assessment . Not to mention that speculating on motive is always risky

The proof of course will be in the pudding and the kind of sales numbers Apple actually gets on this machine.
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  #41  
Old 06-15-2019, 09:34 AM
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…I don't think there is any doubt that with the huge range of options that someone can build a PC that is more specifically targeted for individual need and save money as well over Apple
Hi KW (& others)…

As a photographer, I shoot ALL Canon cameras/lenses. I have over 15 years, and more than $15,000 tied up in camera bodies and lenses. If I decide to switch eco-systems to (let's pretend) Sony, It's going to cost me over $20,000 in new equipment to match what I have.

It would take 6 months to switch-over to a new system and learning new hardware. In the end, the pictures would not edit faster, nor look better.

The total $15,000 expenditure (after selling all my used gear for $5,000) would not be worth the ability to shoot a few frames faster per second. That's not going to happen.

Apple is not perfect, NO COMPUTER COMPANY IS.

To suggest that people just change operating systems and hardware involves a huge investment in time and energy, and in many cases would result in loss of access to current files, and software they currently use.

People seem to forget that most of us who are Mac users (who the new Mac Pro is not designed for) are heavily invested in an eco system called Macintosh. Same could be said for people who use PCs. If you have a 10 year history with any computer system (or more), you are (A) - familiar with it, and (B) - it's major money, and work to switch. Something has to make that worthwhile.

I don't think Apple is overreaching at all with the new MacPro. And I'm not sure they are reaching back. I think they finally delivered a system for people who are involved with 4K, 6K and 8K video production…with future proofing built in. There are a lot of new, independent film makers who are buying multiple $35,000 camera bodies (before lenses and lights).

It will be interesting to see how many of these new businesses have need for a specialized tool which allows them to edit multiple threads of 8K footage in real time.






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  #42  
Old 06-15-2019, 11:07 AM
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A good number of Pro users did just that, and switched to PC during the entire Mac Trash Can debacle
I'm not a "pro" by any stretch and, luckily, I'll never have to depend on my studio for income so I was able to wait until the last second to replace my old Mac Pro. I was hoping it would last until the new one was available but it didn't work out that way. The trash can was a debacle but it was a debacle that was still at a price-point that didn't make me shudder. And while I knew the price would go up, I was hoping the new Mac Pro would still be within a comfortable reach. However, I had less hope that would be the case once the iMac Pro showed up and looked at the cost of that computer.

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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
I don't think there is any doubt that with the huge range of options that someone can build a PC that is more specifically targeted for individual need and save money as well over Apple ......However the fly in ointment, is that you are computer savvy enough to understand what the specs actually mean for each component types and brands, including case, fans, motherboard, CPU, GPU, PCIe slots , types of drives and slots, etc. Otherwise you are going to have to pay to have one built ( and hope they know what your specific needs actually are and what to spec for that) which would mean in your example $4k plus labor and support cost factor
That's a good point. My own situation adds another... I have a friend who is a "pro" and anytime I run into something new and need some help, he's a short drive or a skype session away. He knows the Mac environment inside and out. If I switched to PC, I'd lose that free tech support and I'm reluctant to give that up.
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  #43  
Old 06-15-2019, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post
[size=2]Hi KW (& others)…

As a photographer, I shoot ALL Canon cameras/lenses. I have over 15 years, and more than $15,000 tied up in camera bodies and lenses. If I decide to switch eco-systems to (let's pretend) Sony, It's going to cost me over $20,000 in new equipment to match what I have.

It would take 6 months to switch-over to a new system and learning new hardware. In the end, the pictures would not edit faster, nor look better.

The total $15,000 expenditure (after selling all my used gear for $5,000) would not be worth the ability to shoot a few frames faster per second. That's not going to happen.

Apple is not perfect, NO COMPUTER COMPANY IS.

To suggest that people just change operating systems and hardware involves a huge investment in time and energy, and in many cases would result in loss of access to current files, and software they currently use.

People seem to forget that most of us who are Mac users (who the new Mac Pro is not designed for) are heavily invested in an eco system called Macintosh. Same could be said for people who use PCs. If you have a 10 year history with any computer system (or more), you are (A) - familiar with it, and (B) - it's major money, and work to switch. Something has to make that worthwhile.

I don't think Apple is overreaching at all with the new MacPro. And I'm not sure they are reaching back. I think they finally delivered a system for people who are involved with 4K, 6K and 8K video production…with future proofing built in. There are a lot of new, independent film makers who are buying multiple $35,000 camera bodies (before lenses and lights).

It will be interesting to see how many of these new businesses have need for a specialized tool which allows them to edit multiple threads of 8K footage in real time.
While I completely agree that " just switch over to PC" is a bit simplistic. I am not certain the cost factor to switch for most of us doing basically audio with some video and photography here in AGF land is particularly analogous to your camera situation.

And make no mistake while I prefer the OSX platform and would prefer to continue use it. (Which I imagine I will for another 3 to 5 years, with a graphics card upgrade to be able to move to Mojave if and when I decide to). If I were wanting to upgrade computer now I would probably give serious thought to PC

And I would guess anybody doing anything pro, involving video would likely consider this new MP

But what I am seeing for example over on GS is that many pros, individuals, and small studios and many semi pro , or serious artists, are frustrated with the much of cost of this new machine reflecting a heavy impetus or focus on video. (which is understandable on Apples part given it is a much bigger industry) and does not really serve their audio needs. What I see is a desire for say something like ditching the accelerator card, 4 PCIe slots, an intel 9 chip, more base memory like 64 or 128 GB and more like $4k base price
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  #44  
Old 06-15-2019, 04:59 PM
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I appreciate the input but I've seen too many FB threads in various audio groups where folks were asking help to solve PC problems. Going the PC route is just not something I'm likely to consider. I'll hold out hope that Apple will eventually come out with a Mac Pro aimed at the audio community.
Jim are you needing PCIe slots ? the reason I ask is because over on GS the New Mac Pro thread (all the typical applebasing notwithstanding) has popped some pretty good info especially on the last page or so
Where one (apparently a very knowledgeable guy) was speaking to why he thinks the new gen i7 and i9 chips are better for audio specific tasks than the new chip in the new MP
and notes the latest iMac (not iMac Pro) but the regular iMac with i9 chip upgrade and 1TB SSD upgrade is arguably a superior performer for audio to both the iMac Pro and the new Mac Pro and runs about $3500 to $4500 w/5k display included , depending on RAM selected and Graphics Card. Which is also something I will be interested in in few years (albeit I would have to get an outboard PCIe box if I wanted to stay with PTHDN

Also in answer to your previous question about running video editing I just did some research and for either PC or Mac (and as an alternative to FCPX) is a Video editor called , Davinci Resolve, and it is getting rave reviews even the free version is said to compete head to head with FCPX and Adobe Elements
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  #45  
Old 06-15-2019, 11:39 PM
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Jim are you needing PCIe slots ? the reason I ask is because over on GS the New Mac Pro thread (all the typical applebasing notwithstanding) has popped some pretty good info especially on the last page or so
Where one (apparently a very knowledgeable guy) was speaking to why he thinks the new gen i7 and i9 chips are better for audio specific tasks than the new chip in the new MP
and notes the latest iMac (not iMac Pro) but the regular iMac with i9 chip upgrade and 1TB SSD upgrade is arguably a superior performer for audio to both the iMac Pro and the new Mac Pro and runs about $3500 to $4500 w/5k display included , depending on RAM selected and Graphics Card. Which is also something I will be interested in in few years (albeit I would have to get an outboard PCIe box if I wanted to stay with PTHDN
I don't need the pcie slots anymore. In the past, I needed them for UAD cards but when I switched over to the iMac, I sold the cards and bought an octo satellite.

I have three main reasons for wanting a Mac Pro rather than some version of an iMac.
1. I like being able to upgrade the computer should my needs change. The iMac makes you guess today at what you're needs will be years down the road. I have no idea what my needs will be because I don't know what advances will be made with software that will require upgrades to my system. To a much larger degree than I'm comfortable with, the iMac locks me in.
2. Prior to buying the iMac, I was using a 32" monitor. The iMac forced me to go down to a 27" monitor. I'd really like to have a bigger screen but I have no place to put one now.
3. The Mac Pro leaves me with an uncluttered workspace. The only wires I'd have to have on my desk would be the ones for the display, the keyboard, and the mouse. The iMac created clutter that is always in my way. I have a box to hold ssd drives, a cd drive, a backup drive, two powered usb hubs, and a power strip all sitting on my desk. To make enough room for it all, I have the iMac on a 4 inch shelf so some stuff can fit underneath. With a Mac Pro, all that stuff could be with the computer and out of my way.

But it is what it is. And for now, I'll live with it. On the other side of my relocation I'm going to purchase a real studio desk and hopefully I'll be able to find solutions to the clutter issue. But there is no solution for the fact that I'm somewhat locked in with the iMac. I did pretty much max it out when I bought it so I should be good for a long while. I probably would have gone with the iMac Pro had it been available but when I purchased my iMac, it was either this or the trashcan.
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