martin 0-18 or martin 012-28 for blues guitar

[stephenT]

Since you specifically asked this question in your OP,..

"which would be easier to play"

The 12 fret. Less reach, easier on shoulders and wrist.

[TBman]

IF I were to go back to playing bluesy stuff, I'd look into the Whisky Sunset model Martin was selling. It may not be the size the OP is looking at, but I liked the tone. It was like a less expensive version of the Waterloos that Collings was making.

[BluesKing777]

Originally Posted by TBman

IF I were to go back to playing bluesy stuff, I'd look into the Whisky Sunset model Martin was selling. It may not be the size the OP is looking at, but I liked the tone. It was like a less expensive version of the Waterloos that Collings was making.

He has bought the Martin 00-18, back a few posts!

Err, I have the Waterloo WL-14X AND the Martin 000-17 Black Smoke! The Martin is at my luthier's waiting to get the loose binding fixed. PFFFT! Not a touch on my wonderful Waterloo.....AND they cost about the same in around 2015.....




BluesKing777.

[sinistral]

Originally Posted by stephenT

Since you specifically asked this question in your OP,..

"which would be easier to play"

The 12 fret. Less reach, easier on shoulders and wrist.

With Martins, that isn’t really the case. When Martin created their 14-fret models, they mainly squashed the upper bout to expose two more frets. The bridges moved slightly, but not very much, so the reach is very similar between a 12-fret and 14-fret version of the same size. I couldn’t find a side-by-side comparison of the 0 or 00 models, but here is a comparison of the 000 models (from Robert Corwin’s website):



The bottom of the 12-fret 000 is a little lower than the 1-fret 000, so if you adjust for that difference visually, you’ll see that the bridges are almost in the same place relative to the end of the lower bout. Here is a photo showing the 0, 00 and 000 in 12-fret versions, and the OM (000 14-fret body):



And here are the 0, 00 and 000 in 14-fret versions for comparison purposes:



I doubt that there is a material difference in reach between a 0 14-fret and a 0 12-fret Martin. Gibson, on the other hand, shifted the neck and bridge forward or back to create 12-, 13- and 14-fret versions, so the reach on a 12-fret Gibson is noticeably shorter than on a 14-fret Gibson of the same size.

Richard Hoover explains the difference in this article.

[stephenT]

Originally Posted by sinistral

With Martins, that isn’t really the case.

We disagree. It's not how they look standing aside one another. It's how they fit in one's arms and lap. I do have experience w/ 00 and 0 Martins and every quarter inch makes a big difference in actual use, somewhat different from imagining.

[sinistral]

Originally Posted by stephenT

We disagree. It's not how they look standing aside one another. It's how they fit in one's arms and lap. I do have experience w/ 00 and 0 Martins and every quarter inch makes a big difference in actual use, somewhat different from imagining.

The fact is, “less reach” with respect to Martin guitars (and guitars patterned after Martin guitars) is measured in a few sixteenths of an inch, which many people—including me—cannot feel. I’m not basing that on pictures, but on experience and the explanations of experts. In addison to the Richard Hoover article, read the comments by John Arnold, Bruce Sexauer, Howard Klepper and Buck in this thread.

I have a 0-28S, and have played plenty of 14-fret 0s (and 12- and 14-fret 00s and 000s). The waist in each size is roughly in the same place, and there’s only a few sixteenths of an inch difference in the location of the bridges.

Here’s my 0:



And just this Saturday, I spent a fair amount of time playing a bunch of 12-fret guitars:




If someone is looking for a 12-fret guitar with noticeably less reach, they are better off looking for a Gibson or a guitar that follows the Gibson tradition. In those cases, the difference can be an inch or more. In addition , the whole “bridge is closer to the center of the lower bout” argument in favor of 12-fret also applies to those guitars (as the comments from Messers. Arnold, Sexauer, Klepper and Yates in that linked thread attest).

[stephenT]

Originally Posted by sinistral

The fact is, “less reach” with respect to Martin guitars (and guitars patterned after Martin guitars) is measured in a few sixteenths of an inch, which many people—including me—cannot feel.

A sixteenth of an inch makes a world of difference on a violin. Humans have finessed that sixteenth of an inch and much finer increments for,.. a pretty long time.

Point is "many people" can detect those increments and it matters to them,.. as a working musician I know it does for me. Three hours with a 000 or an OM and I will feel it the next day. Shoulders and wrist. Fourteen fret 00s are OK (00-15 and 00-28). A 00 12 fret is even sweeter (Waterloo WL-12). The John How Ladder Braced concert (an 0 size 12 fret) is a joy to play for a few hours. Scale length is also a factor.

When it comes to guitar my experience is what matters to me. A lifetime of playing on stages and in dark corners,.. whatever the venue offers. The question was about ease of playing as one ages, something I know a bit about. My shoulders, wrists and arms have been "educated" by pains we now try to avoid.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by gazza19

Came away with the 00-18 today :-)

You have chosen... wisely.

[BlueBowman]

Thanks for the link, Sinistral. Interesting to read those comments.

Congrats on the guitar, gazza19! I'm sure it's a good one, and it doesn't get much better than some finger-pickin' blues!

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by blindboyjimi

You’re going to ask 30 strangers and get 40 opinions! I’m a blues fingerpicker. I have many 0/00/000 guitars in rosewood, mahogany, maple, and Koa in 12 and 14 frets with spruce tops, mahogany, and Koa tops. I am 6’2, 200 lbs, and wear a large size glove. I have no trouble with thumb-over barre cords on my 1 7/8” nut guitars. My favorite size is a 00 or 000 that is 1 13/16” x 2 3/8”.

Edit: I re-read your post and if you're fixed on the 0-18 vs the 0-28 in 12 fret, then I'd for certain go mahogany. If I ever had to sell all my guitars, I'd keep one mahogany guitar.

Personally, I’d not ignore the Waterloo guitars. They are mostly L-00 size in 12 or 14 fret and the L-00 sits in between an 0 and 00. I love my WL-12. It’s a 12 fret L-00 in spruce/Maple and is 1 3/4” x 2 3/8”. Best of luck.

What Jimi said :

[sinistral]

Originally Posted by BlueBowman

Thanks for the link, Sinistral. Interesting to read those comments.

Congrats on the guitar, gazza19! I'm sure it's a good one, and it doesn't get much better than some finger-pickin' blues!

There are several gems in that thread, including the post by Bruce Sexauer, but the award clearly goes to Howard Klepper, especially for the last bit in bold:

Diane Ponzio is a performer, not a guitar expert. She reads from a set of talking points most likely authored in an advertising agency that Martin, to its discredit, provides her.

Tony Polecastro's job is to provide favorable reviews of the guitars the store he is associated with sells. There is no reason to think he has any expertise in guitar construction. Matt Chulka is speaking nonsense in that video. The elongation of the upper bout is exactly why the bridge does NOT sit much lower in the lower bout of a traditional Martin 12-fret. [Does a long beard make someone more credible when he speaks about a guitar?] The "sweet spot" myth about the center of the lower bout being where the bridge should be that you hear in the North American Guitar Co. video is being repeated by a player who does not build or repair guitars. It is a good thing for a loudspeaker to be driven at its center. A guitar, besides not being round, has the pull of its strings going sharply to one side of the top, which changes everything about the best place to drive the top.

In all these cases, a person who has no technical expertise in acoustical physics or guitar making is making videos in order to sell instruments (Taylor goes them one better with videos in which people who actually do build guitars make up reasons why they are better). I guess I should no longer be surprised when people take advertising as literal truth, but I still am.

Apologies to the OP for detailing your thread—again, congratulations on a fantastic choice! Style 18 guitars are my favorite Martins in pretty much any size.