The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 12-12-2018, 04:49 PM
JonWint JonWint is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: 1 hr from Nazareth
Posts: 1,045
Default

Not once did Eastman mention shellac, only varnish.

It's also a big secret; "The fact that they won’t share their top secret process with us only adds to the mystique! "

Varnish may refer to a violin-like varnish. "French polish" may refer to the padding process of application. It sounds like marketing-speak to me.

I'd bet it's not "French polished shellac". It's too labor intensive for that price range.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 12-12-2018, 06:13 PM
Steadfastly Steadfastly is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Minto, NB
Posts: 3,800
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercy View Post
what is called violin varnish is actually shellac so maybe thats part of the confusion along with their being French and not fully acculturated in English.
Maybe it is shellac. However, it must be brushed or something else done to dull it a bit. I have used shellac before and it always came out hard and shiny.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12-12-2018, 08:46 PM
zhunter zhunter is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,346
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Carruth View Post
I've never heard of dissolving lac flakes in oil: so far as I know lac resin is soluble in alcohol and in alkaline water solutions, but not in plain oil.

Traditional oil-resin varnish is made by cooking a drying oil, such as linseed, with a resin at a high enough temperature to form a co-polymer. The resulting thick goo is 'cut' with a 'vehicle', such as turpentine or mineral spirits, to achieve a brushing consistency, and painted on the surface. The vehicle evaporates, and the varnish hardens by oxidation and polymerization. The hardened film is not soluble in the original vehicle/solvent to any great extent once it has fully cured, since it is no longer the same stuff. This type of varnish thus has much of the film forming ability and stability of the resin, the flexibility and toughness of the oil, and can be quite resistant to chemicals. Some oil-resin varnishes an be, or become, alcohol soluble in time.

The full-blown 'French polish' finish is traditionally applied with a pad from start to finish. That may, in part, simply be due to the fact that they didn't have spray guns in the Olde Days. In some respects the real 'heart' of the technique is not so much in the application as in the actual polishing stage, which is akin to 'spit shine' on shoes. That is, once the requisite amount of shellac (or other alcohol soluble resin) has been applied to the surface, a small amount of oil is introduced to the pad. The oil keeps the pad from sticking to the soft shellac as it is worked out smooth with pressure from the pad. Over time the amount of alcohol on the pad is reduced, the shellac on the surface hardens, and the pad picks up all of the oil, which, if left on the surface, would prevent the shellac from hardening. It's possible that Godin had dispensed with the tedious process of building up finish with a pad in favor of spraying or brushing it. They may then use sandpaper to level it out, and finally a quick 'spit shine' to polish the surface, instead of buffing mechanically as you would with lacquer. Shellac melts at a low enough temperature that it's fussy to buff mechanically, but can be polished up rather quickly with oil and alcohol, once the surface is level.
I was a little confused by the lac flakes in oil. I was reading some info on a violin building site and ran across the lac in oil (they called it oil varnish as opposed to spirit varnish) scenario. And it was not in the same context as a drop or two of oil on the pad to smooth the shellac application. But it remains part of the mystery to me.

I think of French polish as lac flakes dissolved in alcohol applied with a pad. Pumice for grain fill, oil for smooth application. However, it can also be a layer of French polished shellac applied over varnish base coat. That seems to be a method used on some violins. I guess varnish takes long enough to cure hard enough to be buffed so French polish gives a nice final finish look. At that point I think it would be purely cosmetic.

hunter
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-12-2018, 10:57 PM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Chugiak, Alaska
Posts: 31,166
Default

After I wrote that I didn't know New Jersey had any poets, Monsoon wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsoon1 View Post
I think Springsteen is from Jersey...
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to mention Bruce Springsteen!

Seriously, guys, it was a joke, me playing off the stereotype that leads to jokes like:

"I'm from New Jersey."

"Oh, yeah? Which exit?"

But I've never doubted for an instant that New Jersey is jam-packed with poets, many of whom are good-looking, as well.

Then K Russell wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by k_russell View Post
Of course New Jersey has poets.......Joyce Kilmer even has a rest stop named after her on the NJ Turnpike..
Just in case anyone still thinks I was serious, I was kidding there. It was a joke...

K Russell did mention:

Quote:
Originally Posted by k_russell View Post
.......Joyce Kilmer even has a rest stop named after her on the NJ Turnpike..
Ever see a picture of Joyce Kilmer? "She's" actually a he:



Joyce Kilmer

He was killed in combat in France during World War One.

It's an easy mistake to make, though: in our lifetimes the name Joyce has become an overwhelmingly female name. But it's one of those names like Marion and Ashley that were once predominantly given to male babies, then both male and female, finally evolving into an almost exclusively female name.

Anyway, I think we've established once and for all that New Jersey not only HAS poets, some of them have died in combat and have rest areas named after them.


Wade Hampton Miller
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 12-13-2018, 07:18 AM
k_russell k_russell is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 947
Default

Appreciate the correction Wade. I should know the story of Joyce Killer. Age plays tricks on the memory.


My wife just reminded me that I have made that error before. She is the NJ native.

Last edited by k_russell; 12-13-2018 at 07:46 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 12-13-2018, 01:54 PM
Alan Carruth Alan Carruth is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,180
Default

Pura Vida:
OK; I looked in on their site. Lots of marketing speak and some 'guitar finishing porn' shots. Evidently they're using some sort of wiped shading with dye or color on the wood, and then a shellac based finish over that. All of this is far from 'secret' stuff: I've seen articles covering the whole technique in 'American Lutherie' magazine, and it's pretty common in the world of archtop guitars and mandolins.

Violin makers commonly refer to all of the more-or-less clear finishes that they use as 'varnish'. The ones that are solvent based (generally largely shellac dissolved in alcohol, but with lots of variations) are called 'spirit varnishes'. 'Oil varnishes' are usually the cooked oil-resin formulas that harden by chemical curing rather than solvent evaporation. Again, there are lots of different formulas.

Several years (well, decades...) ago there was a fellow who wrote a directory of American violin makers. He sent out questionaires, and also interviewed some makers in person. One of my friends got interviewed. At one point, the fellow asked him what varnish he used, but indicated that he need not go into any detail. My friend told him the brand he bought, and the fellow checked the box for 'commercial varnish' and chuckled. When he'd finished with the interview he explained the chuckle. He said that many makers would answer that the varnish was their own secret recipe, and he would simply check off 'makes own varnish'. By the time he'd finished the makers, realizing that he was not going to disclose the secret, would often tell him what the recipe was. He said it was always the same recipe (but he didn't say what it was!).

All the makers get the basic ideas and ingredients for their varnish from their teachers, who got it from their teacher, and so on. They start with pretty much the same ingredients, and adjust the proportions and process until they get something that works. There are only so many ways you can do it and end up with a satisfactory coating, and they can end up in pretty much the same place if they started out with similar ingredients. It's their 'secret', since they worked it out for themselves, and since nobody will share they don't know they're all doing the same thing.

If you want to spend an entertaining and lively few minutes, go to a traditional violin maker's meeting, and quietly say the word 'varnish'. Within a few minutes I think they'll be breaking chairs over each other's heads. It is often seen as the key to the 'secret' of Stradivari, and since there are no records of what he did, or any way of finding out for sure, everybody has their own dogma that cannot be denied. There are the 'churches' of 'Oil' and 'Spirit' which end up in different places, of course, but aside from that basic difference they won't say much. Since the finishers at Godin are apparently coming in from that side of the craft, about all you'll ever get from them is mystery: it's their stock in trade.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 12-13-2018, 02:22 PM
Steadfastly Steadfastly is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Minto, NB
Posts: 3,800
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Carruth View Post
Pura Vida:
OK; I looked in on their site. Lots of marketing speak and some 'guitar finishing porn' shots. Evidently they're using some sort of wiped shading with dye or color on the wood, and then a shellac based finish over that. All of this is far from 'secret' stuff: I've seen articles covering the whole technique in 'American Lutherie' magazine, and it's pretty common in the world of archtop guitars and mandolins.

Violin makers commonly refer to all of the more-or-less clear finishes that they use as 'varnish'. The ones that are solvent based (generally largely shellac dissolved in alcohol, but with lots of variations) are called 'spirit varnishes'. 'Oil varnishes' are usually the cooked oil-resin formulas that harden by chemical curing rather than solvent evaporation. Again, there are lots of different formulas.

Several years (well, decades...) ago there was a fellow who wrote a directory of American violin makers. He sent out questionaires, and also interviewed some makers in person. One of my friends got interviewed. At one point, the fellow asked him what varnish he used, but indicated that he need not go into any detail. My friend told him the brand he bought, and the fellow checked the box for 'commercial varnish' and chuckled. When he'd finished with the interview he explained the chuckle. He said that many makers would answer that the varnish was their own secret recipe, and he would simply check off 'makes own varnish'. By the time he'd finished the makers, realizing that he was not going to disclose the secret, would often tell him what the recipe was. He said it was always the same recipe (but he didn't say what it was!).

All the makers get the basic ideas and ingredients for their varnish from their teachers, who got it from their teacher, and so on. They start with pretty much the same ingredients, and adjust the proportions and process until they get something that works. There are only so many ways you can do it and end up with a satisfactory coating, and they can end up in pretty much the same place if they started out with similar ingredients. It's their 'secret', since they worked it out for themselves, and since nobody will share they don't know they're all doing the same thing.

If you want to spend an entertaining and lively few minutes, go to a traditional violin maker's meeting, and quietly say the word 'varnish'. Within a few minutes I think they'll be breaking chairs over each other's heads. It is often seen as the key to the 'secret' of Stradivari, and since there are no records of what he did, or any way of finding out for sure, everybody has their own dogma that cannot be denied. There are the 'churches' of 'Oil' and 'Spirit' which end up in different places, of course, but aside from that basic difference they won't say much. Since the finishers at Godin are apparently coming in from that side of the craft, about all you'll ever get from them is mystery: it's their stock in trade.
Funny and entertaining post. The arguing over varnish reminds me of the argument over coils on some guitar forums.

Now I have a question. Once French polish crosses, say into England, does it become English polish?
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 12-13-2018, 03:06 PM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Chugiak, Alaska
Posts: 31,166
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steadfastly View Post
Funny and entertaining post. The arguing over varnish reminds me of the argument over coils on some guitar forums.

Now I have a question. Once French polish crosses, say into England, does it become English polish?
More importantly, when those finishes are used in Warsaw and Gdansk, are they Polish polish?


whm
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 12-15-2018, 05:53 PM
Alan Carruth Alan Carruth is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,180
Default

Sean Connery trained as a French polisher before he became an actor, but he's still a Scot.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=