Mahogany top: how about volume and headroom compared to to Sitka?

[merlin666]

I see the mahogany or Sapele topped guitars played always plugged in. Can they also sound decent unamplified?

[DesertTwang]

I admit I still don't know what headroom actually means, but I used to think that my Martin 000-15sm is plenty loud and has a very well balanced, even and voluminous tone across all strings.

Anecdotally, I recently practiced with a bluegrass outfit, and at some point, the bassist who was across from me in our small circle of 5 said, "your guitar is very quiet." I switched to my Martin America 1 dreadnaught, and she said, "OK. I can hear you now."

So, I take that as an indication that my 000 doesn't sound as voluminous to the listener as it does to me when I play it.

[DesertTwang]

Originally Posted by merlin666

I see the mahogany or Sapele topped guitars played always plugged in. Can they also sound decent unamplified?

Perhaps that depends on the genre. I know several folks, including me, who play unamplified folk/bluegrassy stuff with all-mahogany guitars, and they sound great. Just not as loud and bassy as a dreadnaught with a spruce top.

[Paddy1951]

Originally Posted by merlin666

I see the mahogany or Sapele topped guitars played always plugged in. Can they also sound decent unamplified?

Sounding "decent" is subjective. That can mean different things to different players.
If you mean adequate volume, then it will depend in your circumstances. Even that, which IS measurable, may not be adequate.
How big is the room? Who or how many are you playing for? Are you playing primarily instrumental music or accompanying singer(s).

[island texan]

My all-mahogany guitar is a 5 series Taylor 12-fret. It is my favorite guitar. I'm not sure what it is exactly - less overtones, more clarity in the mid-tones, whatever. Unamplified it does seem a bit more sedate than my spruce topped guitars. I've only performed with it amplified, and frankly the sound-man decides how it's going to sound rather than the wood in such circumstances. I wouldn't consider it first choice if what you're doing is gigging in a circle with a bunch of other instruments. On the other hand, solo mahogany is my favorite.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

As a general rule of thumb, mahogany tops have headroom galore - it's difficult to overdrive a hardwood top, simply because it's denser, harder and heavier than a softwood top like spruce or cedar.

By the same token, mahogany tops tend to be quieter and perhaps not as projective as spruce tops. They also can have better tonal balance than spruce tops on a dreadnought - many spruce-topped dreadnoughts are overly bassy, but the same guitar with a mahogany top generally won't be, and as a result will work better on a microphone without crippling feedback.

But that same guitar, which mics and records like a dream, will probably struggle to be heard when there are a bunch of other guitars, banjos, mandolins and God knows what else playing at the same time. Nine out of ten mahogany-topped guitars will be quieter and less projective than the same backs and sides topped with spruce would be.

For those of you in the process of curling your lip to sneer at that last statement, because your own mahogany-topped guitar is loud enough to knock a school bus onto its side and cause the Mississippi River to change its course, please understand that I recognize that exceptions to the general rule exist: yes, there are SOME loud and projective mahogany-topped guitars.

But they're the exception, not the rule.

...none of the mahogany-topped guitars I've owned have given me a wide enough selection of tone colors to work with, not for what I do, anyway.

Guess I'm just a lucky guy, Wade - I'm getting a load of volume (and tone, and dynamics) from my D-15S and J12-15, my 3" deep all-hog Guild B4E-AMB is every bit as loud and full-bodied as my since-sold guitarron-size B-50, and the only reason I'm not adding my Taylor LE 320e baritone to the mix is that I haven't used it enough to fully break it in yet...

IME all the positive attributes you justly ascribe to hardwood tops also make them that much harder to break in - simply put, you really need to pound the snot out of them for an extended period of time before they begin to come into their own (much as you would with an all-carved archtop guitar), and if you purchased that 000-15SM for its funky '30s blues-box visuals you're going to be extremely disappointed if you're predominantly or exclusively a fingerpicker. Similarly, every old small-body Martin 17 I've encountered has been a little cannon regardless of playing style - not surprising, considering that their not-too-well-heeled original owners would have needed to beat them into submission in order to be heard over the crowd at a juke joint or barn dance in the days before amplification. Good news is that, if you put in a couple hours a day over a relatively short period (4-6 months) such a guitar will, as you state, have a balance and maturity of tone more often associated with a far-older spruce-top instrument and that will only improve with time - that's when you start to introduce the fingerstyle...

[printer2]

Back around 1980 I was with a frien meeting a classmate of his at a local university. In an empty classroom The classmate was belting out some punk songs (new at the time) and the acoustic guitar sounded distorted. It fit for what he was playing, I never heard an acoustic distort before that. It wasn't till the talk about headroom here that I understood what was happening. Maybe not understanding the actual movement of the top but rather that the upper limit of relatively harmonic movement has been exceed.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Guess I'm just a lucky guy, Wade - I'm getting a load of volume (and tone, and dynamics) from my D-15S and J12-15, my 3" deep all-hog Guild B4E-AMB is every bit as loud and full-bodied as my since-sold guitarron-size B-50, and the only reason I'm not adding my Taylor LE 320e baritone to the mix is that I haven't used it enough to fully break it in yet...

IME all the positive attributes you justly ascribe to hardwood tops also make them that much harder to break in - simply put, you really need to pound the snot out of them for an extended period of time before they begin to come into their own (much as you would with an all-carved archtop guitar), and if you purchased that 000-15SM for its funky '30s blues-box visuals you're going to be extremely disappointed if you're predominantly or exclusively a fingerpicker. Similarly, every old small-body Martin 17 I've encountered has been a little cannon regardless of playing style - not surprising, considering that their not-too-well-heeled original owners would have needed to beat them into submission in order to be heard over the crowd at a juke joint or barn dance in the days before amplification. Good news is that, if you put in a couple hours a day over a relatively short period (4-6 months) such a guitar will, as you state, have a balance and maturity of tone more often associated with a far-older spruce-top instrument and that will only improve with time - that's when you start to introduce the fingerstyle...

I agree. I have a 2018 000-15M added to my collection more as a marvel of construction and also attractive at current price point - I’ll let it age and then pass it on to someone to break it in, so to speak, as I don’t have the time or space to do so.

** string change to uncoated 80/20 D’Addario EJ11: after initial brightness settled, clear tone no murkiness

[cdkrugjr]

To sum up...

You need to play it and see how it responds to your playing.

I played a koa last week that I immediately dropped to taropatch (open D) and tried to play Black Sands ala Ledward...

Not that I sounded like LK, but that's the space it took me

[Nctom]

Guildman, I'm switching to the 0-18 from the 000 for several reasons.
-I like the intimacy of the size. I am not particularly small or have small hands (I am a little less than 6' feet tall and weigh around 200 lbs).
-I play almost exclusively alone in my music room, so I don't need or want a lot of volume.
-I don't think my 00 is that much quieter or has less tone/nuances than your 000.
-The 0-18 is full scale and the neck is the same as my other guitars, unlike most "travel" guitars.
-Finally, my Martin 0-18 looks like the historic Martins of old before the quest for more and more size and volume took over guitar making.

[sstaylor58]

I have one of LA Guitars custom OM-15’s...it plays like butter and is LOUD...clear, punchy and loud when strummed aggressively. Can take everything I throw at it. Love this guitar! I have played spruce topped Taylor’s that were louder, but not as “full” as the all hog, if that makes sense.