A Tale of Two Journeys

[KevinH]

I recently purchased a Journey OF660 CF travel guitar and compared it to the Furch Little Jane in this thread:

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=650429

I decided to return the Journey, not because I didn’t like it, but mostly because the slot for the nut was cut poorly, allowing the nut to move around enough while installing the neck that the intonation could waft around quite a bit. I bought it from Amazon, so returning it wasn’t a problem.

But I did like the rest of the guitar, so I ordered another copy from Amazon, and decided to hang onto the first guitar until the second arrived so I could compare them. I’ve now spent a few days poring over every molecule of both of them and thought it would be useful to report back. I tend to think that carbon fiber guitars should have less copy-to-copy variation than wood, at least when one is careful in their construction. So this was a nice chance to have a look at that.

To refresh the memory, this is what the Journey looks like next to an Emerald X-20:

Journey, X-20.jpg

As one would hope, the second Journey (let’s call it #2...not meant to be a disparaging term) looks just like the first one (#1) shown in the above image, at least from this distance. But there were some minor differences between #1 and #2.
- The top and back of #2 had a few cosmetic dimples and wrinkles that the first one didn’t have.
- #1 had a nicer job done on the mechanism where the neck attaches. But these were just cosmetic, and wouldn’t affect how the guitar functions or my decision to keep one or the other.

#2 had the same sloppy nut slot as #1. But they did a better job of gluing the nut on #2.

There was also a difference between the two that I wouldn’t call good or bad because it’s a matter of personal preference. The earlier thread mentioned that the Journey is on the quiet side. Out of curiosity I tapped the bridge area with my finger on both guitars. There was an obvious difference – #1 had a distinctly warmer sound than #2. Both had about the same volume. So I did the more reproducible saddle tap test on both guitars (see earlier thread) to look at the frequency spectra. Here is a comparison of #1 (blue line) to #2 (orange line):

Two Journey Spectra.jpg

The main air resonance is the peak at 95 Hz. The two guitars sit right on top of one another, which isn’t surprising since #1 and #2 presumably came from the same mold and so have the same volume and shape. On the other hand, the main resonance of the soundboard differs between the two guitars - shown by the peaks between 165 and 210 Hz. The main top resonance for #1 is lower in pitch than #2 by about 15 Hz, which is easily detected – at least by my not-so-great hearing. That range of frequencies is in the ballpark of frets 2 though 6 on the D string. And it’s close to the second harmonic of notes played on the first several frets of the bass E string. So it undoubtedly colors the bass notes. I noticed a difference in tone between the two guitars when playing those bass notes, even with the same strings on both guitars. It’s hard to describe, but #1 sounded warmer to me. There was a distinctly different timbre in the two guitars, at least at the bass end. #1 sounded better to me, but I’m sure others might go the other way.

So there was a difference in tone between these two carbon fiber guitars. I wouldn’t say it was huge – but it was noticeable. And it’s probably related to differences in the two soundboards as indicated by the spectra from the thump tests.

Who knows if that would happen with more expensive guitars, like Emerald, or Sable, etc. I’d imagine it’s less likely in those cases. It's pretty clear that more effort went into the finish work and QC on my X-20 compared to the Journey. But the Journey was less than 1/2 the cost of the X-20.

There were a couple of differences that were not so much a matter of preference. First, when looking at the fretboard of both guitars, it was obvious that the treble e string on #2 was inset more than on #1. Here’s an image that compares the string spacing for both – up around the 15th fret:

String Spacing Old (1) vs New(2) Fret 14.jpg

I checked the spacing at the nut. Both guitars were right at 1.50” between the centers of the E and e strings. But at the saddle, the spacing on #1 was a little over 0.1” more than on #2. So there is some variation when they drill the pin holes.

The second difference is in the placement of the pickup transducers beneath the bridge. I stuck my phone inside guitar #1 through that convenient sound hole. This is where the transducers are located:

Guitar #1 SBT.jpg

Seems reasonable. But look at number #2

Guitar #2 SBT.jpg

Yikes, the transducers are shifted way past the treble end of the bridge. It's not easy placing them, blind through the sound hole, but I'd think they would have made a template. It ends up having a pretty negative effect on the plugged-in sound. The D string on #2 really jumps out and the E and A strings have kind of a weird sound to them.

BTW, the weight of #2 was within an ounce of #1.

And so, while I’d hoped #2 would be a keeper, I’ve decided to return #2 because of the string spacing and the transducers. In the meantime, I’ve grown to like the sound of the first one, so I’ll hang onto it. I’ll probably order a Graphtech blank and make my own nut, and see if I can tweak the strings outward a little bit.

Despite all the nits I’ve brought up, I think the OF660 will turn out to be a nice travel guitar. It has a really big warm bass, surprising for a small guitar, and fairly balanced mids and highs. The mechanism for removing/attaching the neck works really well. And it shrinks down to fit in a fairly small pack, though not as small as the Little Jane. But it does sound quite a bit bigger than the Little Jane and, of course, will do better in hot/dry places.

[steelvibe]

Wow Kevin, another very informative and useful post. Thank you!

Again I wish the team at Journey were more active here. They were very engaged during the launch and took a ton of feedback from real players during R&D process. The issue with the transducers is shocking and, quite frankly, unforgivable for what they are asking for these guitars. I could let the issues with mine pass since I figured out an easy fix, but that issue with #2 is not an easy fix!

Not surprised #1 is growing on you. They really do sound great.

[casualmusic]

Originally Posted by KevinH

In the meantime, I’ve grown to like the sound of the first one, so I’ll hang onto it. I’ll probably order a Graphtech blank and make my own nut, and see if I can tweak the strings outward a little bit.

With a steady hand you (or your guitar tech) could gently file down that resin blob so the nut sits in its designed position and improves the intonation. Maybe file a bit at a time and check as you go?


BTW there are postings from a few years ago about installing a GoldTone Zero Glide on the Journey OF660.

[casualmusic]

Originally Posted by KevinH

The second difference is in the placement of the pickup transducers beneath the bridge. I stuck my phone inside guitar #1 through that convenient sound hole. This is where the transducers are located:

Attachment 78795

Seems reasonable. But look at number #2

Attachment 78796

Yikes, the transducers are shifted way past the treble end of the bridge. It's not easy placing them, blind through the sound hole, but I'd think they would have made a template. It ends up having a pretty negative effect on the plugged-in sound. The D string on #2 really jumps out and the E and A strings have kind of a weird sound to them.

https://journeyinstruments.com/wp-co...de_.200914.pdf

The EP001K is also sold separately and includes templates to position the pickups. It's probably lots quicker for the factory installers to simply reach in and press the pickups into place.

[KevinH]

Originally Posted by casualmusic

...BTW there are postings from a few years ago about installing a GoldTone Zero Glide on the Journey OF660.

Thanks, I'll look into that!

[KevinH]

Originally Posted by steelvibe

...Again I wish the team at Journey were more active here. They were very engaged during the launch and took a ton of feedback from real players during R&D process. The issue with the transducers is shocking and, quite frankly, unforgivable for what they are asking for these guitars. I could let the issues with mine pass since I figured out an easy fix, but that issue with #2 is not an easy fix!....

Yeah, too bad. I think they're missing out on some good feedback. I sent them a message through their website a week or so ago, but never heard back.

Originally Posted by steelvibe

...Not surprised #1 is growing on you. They really do sound great.

They do. And it's a good example, at least for me, of why it's worth spending more than an hour with a guitar before deciding if it's a keeper.

[Captain Jim]

Wow - those are significant differences between #1 and #2 Journeys. Thank you for taking the time to document that.

[SpruceTop]

Kevin, an interesting and well-done comparison! It seems like the first one will be good for you once you install a new nut.

[DownUpDave]

After your first post I checked the fit of the nut on my OF660. Sure enough it does have a gap like yours does. An easy fix would be to slide a shim in place between the back of the nut and the end of the fret board to fill in the space.

I noticed you said “but it does sound quite a bit bigger then the Little Jane”. From all the video recordings I have listened to I thought the Little Jane sounded “better” but a bit on the boxy side. The 0F660 does not sound boxy at all, is that what you meant by it sounding bigger, cause it is on the quiet side

[KevinH]

Originally Posted by DownUpDave

...I noticed you said “but it does sound quite a bit bigger then the Little Jane”. From all the video recordings I have listened to I thought the Little Jane sounded “better” but a bit on the boxy side. The 0F660 does not sound boxy at all, is that what you meant by it sounding bigger, cause it is on the quiet side

Yes, exactly. Sound is a hard thing to describe. The L J is definitely louder, but doesn't have the full-sounding bass of the OF660. So the Journey sounds like a bigger guitar (to me) in that sense, and the L J a little boxy. But it's definitely quieter than the L J.

A shim would definitely work, or maybe just enough glue to keep the nut in place. I think I'll try making my own nut with a better fit, but also because I'd like to try to widen the string spacing a little. I'll let you know if that works out.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by KevinH

A shim would definitely work, or maybe just enough glue to keep the nut in place. I think I'll try making my own nut with a better fit, but also because I'd like to try to widen the string spacing a little. I'll let you know if that works out.

Kevin, I'm puzzled as to why Journey hasn't corrected this problem. It seems like a different-sized nut and the usage of adhesive would have been indicated a fairly long time ago. Have you asked Journey about this matter? Thanks.

[KevinH]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Kevin, I'm puzzled as to why Journey hasn't corrected this problem. It seems like a different-sized nut and the usage of adhesive would have been indicated a fairly long time ago. Have you asked Journey about this matter? Thanks.

Me too. It's an obvious thing to catch in an inspection. But then I'd think the transducer locations would have been really obvious too. I did send them an email through their website not long after I got #1, and mentioned the gap at the nut and that I planned on returning it. I expected they'd say something like - "Yeah that shouldn't happen. We'll look into it." But I never heard a word back.

Maybe there's a better way to contact them. If anyone has had luck conversing with Journey I'd appreciate it if you'd let me know.

[Aspiring]

Originally Posted by KevinH

Me too. It's an obvious thing to catch in an inspection. But then I'd think the transducer locations would have been really obvious too. I did send them an email through their website not long after I got #1, and mentioned the gap at the nut and that I planned on returning it. I expected they'd say something like - "Yeah that shouldn't happen. We'll look into it." But I never heard a word back.

Maybe there's a better way to contact them. If anyone has had luck conversing with Journey I'd appreciate it if you'd let me know.

I contacted the US contact number two years ago when I picked up my RT and I actually had my call returned by the us importer at the time.

I may have mentioned my nut wasn't properly attached either but my expectations were a bit lower as I had purchased a b stock.

Sent from my motorola edge (2021) using Acoustic Guitar Forum mobile app

[jricc]

Great comparison post Kevin. Thanks

[Jeff350]

The nut on my OF660 is also loose - I actually assumed it was on purpose but it's annoying. Every time I take the neck off I have to make sure I don't lose the nut, then try to get it back in the right place when I'm reinstalling the neck.

Let me know if Journey responds, I'd be interested in hearing what they say.