acoustic sound degradation by soundhole pickup?

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

It will interfere with air flow in and out of the guitar and will have an effect on the acoustic sound.

Yes, and a soundhole pickup also adds weight to the soundboard and that also changes the guitar's acoustic tone.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by jazzizm

I just had a Seymour Duncan MagMic installed in my 00-12 fret. While I quite like the sound of the pickup, I‘m not sure whether the guitar acoustically sounded better without the pup. It feels like there’s some attenuation of lows/low mids.
Is it possible that the reduction of soundhole area is responsible for this? Anyone else having this issue with a MagMic in a smallish soundhole?

Hi j-izm

A simple test you can do quickly and easily is to have someone else play it for you while you listen, first without it and then with it, and then reverse that (possibly even blindfold yourself while listening).

If you are only installing when you play live through amplification, then why even worry. I'd never install a sound hole pickup or sound hole feedback arrester intending to leave them there permanently. Perhaps you have other thoughts…

[jazzizm]

I deinstalled the pickup yesterday. I can definitely hear the difference. The guitar now has its deep, throaty tone back. Will order a K&K pickup for it.

[Pnewsom]

Along with the mass of the pickup weighing down the top of the guitar, the magnetic field generated by it can dampen the strings a bit too.

[jazzizm]

So we have three reasons now why a (big) soundhole pickup is bad for acoustic tone: mass, area of soundhole covered, magnetic pull.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by noledog

I've had a Baggs M80 in my D18 for years, it has not affected nor dampened the unplugged tone.

I don't have a D18, but in my guitar the M80 definitely damps the liveliness of the top a bit. The thing's really hefty, it's supported solely by the top, and it's designed to function by transducing both magnetic field disturbances and energy it absorbs from the top. Physics is a zero-sum game, so how could the pickup not affect the top?

[PHJim]

Originally Posted by AndyC

It's inevitable that putting a large object in the part of the guitar from where the sound emanates is going to change that sound. The type and amount of change is going to vary by guitar, and in most instances won't be that discernible to the human ear.

Most people treat soundhole pickups as a less than permament installation, so if you don't need to plug in, remove the pickup. If you're plugged in it is an irrelevance as the only sound heard by the audience will be the amplified sound.

I have a Fishman soundhole pickup in my Goya. It has a connection to a strap pin connector, so it stays in the guitar. I don't think the change in sound from before I installed the pickup is discernable, but it's not a huge pickup.

[PHJim]

I just noticed that AndyC and I spelled discernible/discernable differently, so I googled to see which one was correct. I found this:
The difference between discernible and discernable is that discernible is possible to discern while discernable is detectable or derivable by use of the senses or the intellect.
I think that this indicates that, in this case, AndyC's spelling is the correct one.

[stephenT]

Long time soundhole pickup user, Sunrise (relatively heavy) and now Fishman Blackstack (lighter and smaller).

The Sunrise definitely clamped down the top and degraded the tone and volume. The Fishman less so, it's almost imperceivable. The weight and size do make a difference.

Originally Posted by jazzizm

So we have three reasons now why a (big) soundhole pickup is bad for acoustic tone: mass, area of soundhole covered, magnetic pull.

Yeah, well,.. given the distance between the pickup and strings the magnetic pull is not an issue. I like the sound of a good (the best) soundhole pickups, like the ones I've mentioned over all the piezo based pickups I've tried, the K&K being one of the worst. If you're strumming in your living room, do a solo act piezo pickups might be OK. If you're playing on stage w/ other people, bass player, etc. at club levels, a soundhole pickup is the only choice.

[YamahaGuy]

My Eastman E1OM seems a little more choked up with the SD Magmic in it as well. The guitar still sounds terrific even with the pickup in it and does sound really good amplified, but I fear the acoustic amplitude is lessened with the Magmic clamped in there.

[roylor4]

I lost a bit of liveliness from my RK 12 fret after installing a DeArmond ToneBoss. It really didn't surprise me, as it's a fairly hefty p'up.

I think size/weight of the pickup, top thickness and all that can play a role.

In my mind, it makes sense that smaller guitars might lose a step more than a dread with a soundhole rig.

[lkingston]

I don't mind if my soundhole pickup and mic deadens the sound a little. My main concern is how I sound amplified in front of an audience. If I'm not playing live, I'm practicing. Frankly, I'd rather be a little softer when I'm practicing anyway. My wife closes the door between us and would really rather not hear me. Sometimes I practice on an unplugged Telecaster just to be as soft as possible. If she's not home, I like to practice plugged in as much as possible. My main concern is how I sound live.

Plus a little deadening of the top likely helps fight feedback.

[PHJim]

Originally Posted by lkingston

I don't mind if my soundhole pickup and mic deadens the sound a little. My main concern is how I sound amplified in front of an audience. If I'm not playing live, I'm practicing. Frankly, I'd rather be a little softer when I'm practicing anyway. My wife closes the door between us and would really rather not hear me. Sometimes I practice on an unplugged Telecaster just to be as soft as possible. If she's not home, I like to practice plugged in as much as possible. My main concern is how I sound live.

Plus a little deadening of the top likely helps fight feedback.

There are times when I am forced to use a pickup in performance out of self defence, but I still prefer to play through a mic, not an expensive one, but an SM57 or a Beta 57. I like to play the mic and move in for breaks and back off for backup. I know that pickups are constantly improving, but they still don't sound as good (to me) as an acoustic through a mic. I realise that this is subjective, but I like my guitar to sound as natural as possible.

[lkingston]

Originally Posted by PHJim

There are times when I am forced to use a pickup in performance out of self defence, but I still prefer to play through a mic, not an expensive one, but an SM57 or a Beta 57. I like to play the mic and move in for breaks and back off for backup. I know that pickups are constantly improving, but they still don't sound as good (to me) as an acoustic through a mic. I realise that this is subjective, but I like my guitar to sound as natural as possible.

I’ve seen bluegrass players share a single Ear Trumpet Labs mic doing exactly that: moving in for solos and back for accompaniment. The same with the vocals.

My approach is to use a very good mic/pickup blend, and turn the volume up so that I can play very softly ducking the guitar under the vocals, but then have enough gain to be able to bring the volume up for fills and solos just by plucking the strings harder with my fingers.

I do wish more singing guitarists paid attention to dynamics. I’ve been playing open mics lately and the vast majority just strum at the same loud volume through each and every song!

[varmonter]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

I don't have a D18, but in my guitar the M80 definitely damps the liveliness of the top a bit. The thing's really hefty, it's supported solely by the top, and it's designed to function by transducing both magnetic field disturbances and energy it absorbs from the top. Physics is a zero-sum game, so how could the pickup not affect the top?

Yes but is it dicernable.
My point being just play the guitar and
enjoy it.
My physics prof in college posed the class a question. If you buy two cups
of equal temp coffee in a vending machine and poor cream in just one.
than walk across campus carrying both cups ( it was about 0 degrees out)
Which one would be cooler when you
got across campus??
Well the class thinking "zero sum"
all agreed that the one with the cream
would be cooler. But in fact the black
coffee would be ,as the cream acts as an insulator.